I feel like I've just read the script of a soap opera. :) But all the same, I personally think it's a good thing to have "Ask Your Husband" off the menu. Someone needs to survey us older Catholic ladies who've navigated long term marriage for some tips.
As someone who has only recently started listening to what the Gordon brothers have been putting out, I find this whole tale extremely sad and disheartening, especially considering how the topic of feminism and its ramifications is so important.
My sympathies lie in the direction of Tim and Steph on this one. Dave comes across as extremely vindictive and jealous in his comments and this story has similarities to Cain and Abel. It is quite rich for Dave to accuse his brother of searching after fame and money when he, on his own much smaller and less developed YouTube channel, just said that he was trying to build up his own audience. The shot across the bow threatening to sue his brother over attempting to publish a modified version of AYH says a lot about his motivations in my mind, namely that he is the one after fame and fortune and that all of his bluster is nothing more than projection. It has been clear from Dave's history on Twitter that he has shot himself in the foot on more than one occasion publicly and he now appears to be taking this out on his brother.
Regarding the allegations themselves, it is difficult to determine the truth of the matter without seeing the 28-page document. Tim and Steph claim that intellectual property lawyers have assured them that they are in the clear. Dave is clearly frustrated that much of his research has helped his brother and sister-in-law in some fashion. He may feel like he hasn't gotten enough credit for that in spite of references to his research in AYH and podcasts. Fair enough. But is this how you handle it? Good grief.
In full disclosure, I have read AYH, the Case for Patriarchy, and would read Dave's book as well, if he can get it published. I like both of the books and think they are very timely. However, it is clear that AYH, even with its references and quotes, is meant to be more exhortatory rather than scholarly. For those who have read about the Church's teaching on marriage for years, there is little in AYH that is new in terms of scholarship. Rather its primary value the way in which it serves as a call to action. Is it a perfect book? No. But it is a good book and should be an occasion to have many fruitful discussions about how marriage and even Catholic marriage has gone off the rails in recent decades.
Unfortunately, Dave has decided to make all of this about himself, rather than the ideas that all three authors claim to share in common. There is no reason why this dispute had to be made public. There is also no reason why any faults of attribution couldn't have been corrected in future book editions or in some other fashion.
Dave has done his own cause much damage, not to mention the damage to his own reputation.
All of this is tiresome. My manly friends and I stood in the breach during the height of the Katrina feminism of the late seventies ( when hurricanes were rightly only named after women) and declared the winners of the Andy Capp awards ( the Andys) into the teeth of indoctrinated women. We have lived to see our so-called "male chauvinism" proven not only right, but desired by women again.
“Fame and fortune.” I really had to laugh at that. Very few Catholic authors make good money on their books. It is a way to get credibility for speaking engagements. Fewer still have any name recognition beyond a small subset of American Catholics. I’m sure that my very Catholic strong women friends will get a laugh at how they should let their husbands speak for them.
The fact that they consulted a copyright lawyer doesn't affect the question of whether the work was plagiarized. A case of copyright violation is different from a case of plagiarism.
I’ve been very intrigued by the idea of intellectual property within Catholic morality, particularly when it comes to the arts. I kind of thought that’s where this article was going. Perhaps a future article? Regardless, a sad story, but it raises a lot of questions about what Catholic artists/creatives may or may not be entitled to, morally speaking.
*shakes head slowly*. We have so many rich works and examples of women in the Church - Gianna Molla's letters, the work of St. Teresa of Avila, JPII's Mulieris Dignatatem. I'll stick with them...or...dare I say it, should I ask my husband what he thinks I should read first?
I'm thankful you refer to the Gordon's as far-right and not as traditional. Unfortunately, there's not much of the Tradition in what they peddle. The critique by Favale quoted above says it all. We can't counter feminism by playing the same power games. It's just another entry in the culture wars of conservative liberals fighting progressive liberals. Catholicism offers something so much more interesting than any of the flavors of liberalism.
Also, can we really take anyone who unironically uses the term "alpha male" seriously?
Several months ago I listened to a podcast by brother Dave giving sexual advice for married Catholics and must admit I found it more than a bit creepy. That was the end of that.
Good grief. This is a real train wreck - I’m struggling to find any good upshot.
1 Corinthians 6 is coming to mind.
“[5] I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you any one wise man, that is able to judge between his brethren?
[6] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before unbelievers. [7] Already indeed there is plainly a fault among you, that you have lawsuits one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? [8] But you do wrong and defraud, and that to your brethren. “
Reading this felt like the equivalent of watching a reality TV show. It makes me wonder at this human desire to be privy to the details of what happened privately between other people I don’t even know in real life that have absolutely zero impact on my life.
Pride is the beginning of all sin. Turn the other cheek. Remove the log from your own eye first. Don’t let the sun go down on your anger. For people who are ostensibly making a living trying to help people be better Catholics, there are some serious basics these folks are overlooking. The fact that there are brothers involved just makes it all the worse.
Well now, that IS a tale.
I feel like I've just read the script of a soap opera. :) But all the same, I personally think it's a good thing to have "Ask Your Husband" off the menu. Someone needs to survey us older Catholic ladies who've navigated long term marriage for some tips.
As someone who has only recently started listening to what the Gordon brothers have been putting out, I find this whole tale extremely sad and disheartening, especially considering how the topic of feminism and its ramifications is so important.
My sympathies lie in the direction of Tim and Steph on this one. Dave comes across as extremely vindictive and jealous in his comments and this story has similarities to Cain and Abel. It is quite rich for Dave to accuse his brother of searching after fame and money when he, on his own much smaller and less developed YouTube channel, just said that he was trying to build up his own audience. The shot across the bow threatening to sue his brother over attempting to publish a modified version of AYH says a lot about his motivations in my mind, namely that he is the one after fame and fortune and that all of his bluster is nothing more than projection. It has been clear from Dave's history on Twitter that he has shot himself in the foot on more than one occasion publicly and he now appears to be taking this out on his brother.
Regarding the allegations themselves, it is difficult to determine the truth of the matter without seeing the 28-page document. Tim and Steph claim that intellectual property lawyers have assured them that they are in the clear. Dave is clearly frustrated that much of his research has helped his brother and sister-in-law in some fashion. He may feel like he hasn't gotten enough credit for that in spite of references to his research in AYH and podcasts. Fair enough. But is this how you handle it? Good grief.
In full disclosure, I have read AYH, the Case for Patriarchy, and would read Dave's book as well, if he can get it published. I like both of the books and think they are very timely. However, it is clear that AYH, even with its references and quotes, is meant to be more exhortatory rather than scholarly. For those who have read about the Church's teaching on marriage for years, there is little in AYH that is new in terms of scholarship. Rather its primary value the way in which it serves as a call to action. Is it a perfect book? No. But it is a good book and should be an occasion to have many fruitful discussions about how marriage and even Catholic marriage has gone off the rails in recent decades.
Unfortunately, Dave has decided to make all of this about himself, rather than the ideas that all three authors claim to share in common. There is no reason why this dispute had to be made public. There is also no reason why any faults of attribution couldn't have been corrected in future book editions or in some other fashion.
Dave has done his own cause much damage, not to mention the damage to his own reputation.
All of this is tiresome. My manly friends and I stood in the breach during the height of the Katrina feminism of the late seventies ( when hurricanes were rightly only named after women) and declared the winners of the Andy Capp awards ( the Andys) into the teeth of indoctrinated women. We have lived to see our so-called "male chauvinism" proven not only right, but desired by women again.
If you have a gift to offer, and remember your brother has something against you, first go and be reconciled with your brother. Then offer your gift.
“Fame and fortune.” I really had to laugh at that. Very few Catholic authors make good money on their books. It is a way to get credibility for speaking engagements. Fewer still have any name recognition beyond a small subset of American Catholics. I’m sure that my very Catholic strong women friends will get a laugh at how they should let their husbands speak for them.
The fact that they consulted a copyright lawyer doesn't affect the question of whether the work was plagiarized. A case of copyright violation is different from a case of plagiarism.
I’ve been very intrigued by the idea of intellectual property within Catholic morality, particularly when it comes to the arts. I kind of thought that’s where this article was going. Perhaps a future article? Regardless, a sad story, but it raises a lot of questions about what Catholic artists/creatives may or may not be entitled to, morally speaking.
*shakes head slowly*. We have so many rich works and examples of women in the Church - Gianna Molla's letters, the work of St. Teresa of Avila, JPII's Mulieris Dignatatem. I'll stick with them...or...dare I say it, should I ask my husband what he thinks I should read first?
I'm thankful you refer to the Gordon's as far-right and not as traditional. Unfortunately, there's not much of the Tradition in what they peddle. The critique by Favale quoted above says it all. We can't counter feminism by playing the same power games. It's just another entry in the culture wars of conservative liberals fighting progressive liberals. Catholicism offers something so much more interesting than any of the flavors of liberalism.
Also, can we really take anyone who unironically uses the term "alpha male" seriously?
Several months ago I listened to a podcast by brother Dave giving sexual advice for married Catholics and must admit I found it more than a bit creepy. That was the end of that.
How sad for their families.
You have to be really careful if you watch/ listen Catholic in internet. If you are not informed about your faith you can get sucked in.
Good grief. This is a real train wreck - I’m struggling to find any good upshot.
1 Corinthians 6 is coming to mind.
“[5] I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you any one wise man, that is able to judge between his brethren?
[6] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before unbelievers. [7] Already indeed there is plainly a fault among you, that you have lawsuits one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? [8] But you do wrong and defraud, and that to your brethren. “
Reading this felt like the equivalent of watching a reality TV show. It makes me wonder at this human desire to be privy to the details of what happened privately between other people I don’t even know in real life that have absolutely zero impact on my life.
Pride is the beginning of all sin. Turn the other cheek. Remove the log from your own eye first. Don’t let the sun go down on your anger. For people who are ostensibly making a living trying to help people be better Catholics, there are some serious basics these folks are overlooking. The fact that there are brothers involved just makes it all the worse.