‘A general misconception about dialogue’ - How an imam got talking with Pope Francis

Meet Ahmadiyya Imam Marwan Gill, the imam set to visit the pope for a third time this week

The Ahmadiyya Muslims are a community of around 12 to 15 million Muslim believers, who — because they believe in a Muslim messiah named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad — are considered heretical by mainstream Islam, and severely persecuted in many Muslim-majority countries.

Ahmadiyya Imam Marwan Gill is leader of the Ahmadiyya movement in Argentina. Since becoming involved in interreligious dialogue, Gill has met Pope Francis twice, and is set to visit the Holy Father a third time this week, to present the pope his recent book about interreligious dialogue.

Gill spoke with The Pillar about his experience with Pope Francis, what he has learned from him, and the impact it has had on his vision of Catholicism.

The interview was conducted in English, but has been edited for length and clarity.

---

Tell us a little bit about the Ahmadiyya community. What distinguishes it from mainstream Islam?

The Ahmadiyya community was founded in the 19th century, in India, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, peace be upon him.

And Ahmad claimed to be the promised Messiah.

All Muslims, Sunni or Shia, believe in the coming of a messiah in the latter days. The majority of them, let's say the mainstream, even believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, will come in a second advent, but this time as a messiah for the Muslim world.

We Ahmadiyya are the only community that believes that this promise, and this prophecy of the Holy Quran and Islam, was fulfilled by the founder of our community.

Hence, we don't believe in a literal coming of Jesus as a second messiah. Rather, for us, it's a fulfillment in a metaphorical sense, a new person, but with the same mission, with the same characteristics, with the same way of taking on this work of reformation.

When Jesus, peace be upon him, came, Jews at that time were expecting a messiah with a focus on political power. But Jesus explained to them that his throne and his mission were more spiritual.

In the same sense, when our founder claimed to be the second advent of Jesus, and the fulfillment of the messiah for the Muslim world, the majority rejected him. They were expecting a warrior, a figure with political power, but he said “no.”

For example, he clarified that there's no justification for violent jihad now in the 20th or 21st century, because as long as Muslims are granted religious freedom, there's no justification at all for any violent reaction.

Even in his time, there was debate in India about whether the war against the British could be classified as a jihad, and he categorically said no, because as long as the British Empire was granting us religious freedom, and we were allowed to practice Islam as a religion, there was no justification for a violent jihad.

For us it is the same anywhere nowadays. There's no religious conflict, because no one is targeting Islam itself.

If the Ahmadiyya community was founded in India, then why is it now based in England?

After the partition of Pakistan and India, the majority of the faithful and the headquarters of the Ahmadiyya community also moved from India to Pakistan. But sadly, in the 1980s, with the rise of the dictatorship, which was supported by the far-right clerics, they targeted the Ahmadiyya Muslim community and we became scapegoats. We were declared officially non-Muslims by the constitution.

The fourth caliph, at that time, had to migrate to the U.K., where he was granted exceptional leave to stay.

What sort of persecution are we talking about?

The worst case is in Pakistan, where it is state-sponsored, official persecution by law. We are not allowed to call our mosque a mosque, we have to call it a temple. And we are not allowed to say the traditional Muslim greeting of “Assalamu Alaikum”, or call ourselves Muslims. If we do, we can go to prison for two or three years.

We also have many blasphemy cases, as do the Christians in Pakistan, where the blasphemy law has been misused by clerics to silence any alternative voice in society. In 2010 we had a terror attack against our two mosques in Lahore, where 100 people were martyred, and almost every week there are cases where they're attacking our mosques, even graveyards, or the school.

In 2022 you visited the pope. Were you the first Ahmadiyya religious leader to do so?

In official audience, yes. It was for me a huge honor, a privilege, that I was the first representative of the community to be received by Pope Francis.

And how did this meeting come about?

In 2017, when I arrived in Argentina, I could feel the love the people had for Pope Francis, and the respect. I felt that people are somehow disappointed in the Church as an institution, but they're still looking for God, for spirituality, and especially that Pope Francis is a figure not just for the Catholics in Argentina, but the whole society, that we feel proud of him.

I saw that one of the marks Pope Francis had left behind from his time as cardinal of Buenos Aires was interfaith dialogue. He broke many taboos in Argentinian society by getting close to the evangelicals, to the Jews, and to the Muslims.

Argentina faced two terrorist attacks in the 90s against the Embassy of Israel, and against the Jewish Community Center. In 2019, I was invited to an interfaith prayer, with a rabbi and a priest, to commemorate these attacks. No imam had every participated, mostly because of Middle East politics. I immediately accepted, and went to the event, expressed my condolences for the victims, prayed for them, and clarified that Islam categorically defends the sanctity of life of all human beings, without any distinction.

Buenos Aires is home to the headquarters of ChaiFM, a radio channel which is the voice of the Jewish community in all the Spanish-speaking countries. And based upon my remarks at that event, they invited me for a weekly program called Salaam Shalom – dialogue between a Jew and a Muslim. But we never expected that it would lead us to Rome, to the Vatican. Then, when the pope found out about this initiative, we were invited to the ceremony of the beatification of John Paul I, in 2022.

The next day we had the audience with the pope, as he was very much interested to find out more about our Salaam Shalom initiative, because though it had started as a radio show, over the months it converted more into a fellowship, into a brotherhood between myself and my Jewish counterpart.

You are on this program representing Islam, yet you represent a very small minority in Islam.

Have you had negative reactions from other Muslims?

Yes, of course. In Islam there are more than 70 sects and communities and everyone claims to be the only unique and fully authentic voice. What we highlight always is that it's true we might represent a very small number, but whenever we speak, we speak authentically about the origins of the teachings. Our claims are based on the resources which are common between all Muslims, which is the Holy Quran and the life and the tradition of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

So, many Muslims might not identify with our community, but I think the message we convey is the very true basic message of Islam.

Since then, have you been with the pope on any other occasions?

Yes, at the beginning of this year, for the canonization of the first Argentinian saint, Mama Antula. But this time the audience was more focused on the Middle East war, and we asked His Holiness to advise us, as back then when we started the initiative, the context was very different, and now, especially asOctober 7, and what's happening in Gaza has brought us to a state of division, which I at least had not seen before, especially in interfaith relations. Everything is divided into black and white, and it’s so hard to find common ground.

Our leader, in a public sermon, denounced what Hamas did, and clarified that it has nothing to do with Islam. And afterwards, obviously, we also criticized the massacre of civilians in Gaza. But what I felt was that from the Jewish side now, there were less people committed to the cause of dialogue. So, we asked the pope how we could move ahead with this message now, and he said that he supported us, and that now was precisely the time to continue, and not be discouraged. That's where we decided it’s precisely at the darkest moment that you have to at least light a small candle, and we took the initiative to publish the book, which we are going to present to him on Thursday.

Pope Francis has met with the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar and with the leading Shia cleric in Iraq, Ali al-Sistani, and has taken a great interest in Islam and in promoting relations with Islam.

What's your idea of the pope's approach to Islam?

I think the pope is a close friend of the Muslim world.

If you go back in history, especially with Pope Benedict, it was a very complicated relationship, especially after his remarks at Regensburg. But with Pope Francis, just look at his recent trip to Indonesia, and the outcome and the impact it had. But not just the Indonesia trip! He was the first pope to visit Bahrain, he was the first to visit Iraq, and he was the first to officially receive the Ahmadiyya Muslim delegation. It's not easy for him. He also gets a lot of criticism, but I think he's very committed to this cause.

I think there's a general misconception about dialogue. I would recommend to our readers to read Fratelli tutti, because there he defines and clarifies the basic essence, and what it means to dialogue. It doesn't mean that you have to reject, or renounce your own identity, or that we are going to the table to find a common religion. That's impossible. Everyone has his identity, but I think that interfaith dialogue helps you to strengthen your own identity, because you will find so many values and teachings in common.

Dialogue is to sit with the other, to try to see the same thing, but from his point of view. And then I can have my vision, but at least to have this ability to listen, to sit down to and, despite the differences, to see what we can do together for a better world.

Based on what you have learned about Christianity and Catholicism, and your obvious knowledge of your own faith tradition, what would you say are the main things that are in common between Christianity and Ahmadiyya Islam?

I would say the common base which we have is the concept of loving God, loving the creator by offering your service to the creation of God, with the aim of creating a better world and leaving a better society behind.

No one is [made] perfect by just using the label of Jew, Muslim or Christian. It's a constant struggle. But I am convinced that anyone who, with sincerity, goes and studies the words of Jesus in the Bible is going to become a better person, the same way anyone who goes and reads the Quran he's going to become a better person.

The origin of corruption is always the absence of light, and darkness is the product. It's the same if God is absent in your heart, in your decisions, in your thoughts, that's where Satan comes in. That's why I think it's important for people of any faith to bring the light of God into the world, so the divine light can enter into the human beings.

You were born and raised in Germany, but where is your family originally from?

My parents are originally from Pakistan, but my grandfather was from India. After Pakistan and India split, as the majority of the Muslims, my grandfather moved from India to Pakistan. Then, almost 40 years ago, my parents moved to Germany.

And why did they move?

It was forced migration because of religious persecution. I belong to the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, a global Muslim community with its headquarters in the UK.

How did you wind up opening a mission in Argentina?

I was born and raised in a small town near Frankfurt. After finishing my high school graduation, I decided to study theology, enter Islamic seminary and dedicate my life to being an imam. At that time, I received an offer to go to London, where I studied theology.

I graduated in 2016, and for a few months I was posted as an imam in Ghana, West Africa. Then I went back to the UK. And then the community assigned me as the imam and pioneer of our community for Argentina. I had always thought I would work as an imam in a German or English-speaking country, I had never imagined ending up in South America. It was a whole, 180-degree change.

You grew up in Germany, which is culturally a Christian country, but I imagine that having moved to Argentina, and now with this work in interfaith dialogue and having become familiar with the pope’s work, this has led you to a greater and deeper understanding of Catholicism.

In what way has your vision of Christianity also grown over the years?

In my career at the seminary, I studied Christian theology, but it was from the Muslim perspective. Now, after entering the interfaith dialogue and having friends from the Christian background, you don't have to agree with them, but you start seeing things from their point of view. And there's some points where you might then agree with them, and there are others where you're not going to agree with them, but at least you're going to understand them better.

That's also what I've seen now, especially after October 7, one thing which can bring people closer, and close the gap, is a personal relationship. Take away the Jew, the Muslim, the Arab, the Israeli. Take away these labels and you see the other person as a human being, someone like you.

Meeting Pope Francis was astonishing, and I really highly appreciate him as a person. Obviously, as an imam, there are aspects where I don't agree with him in terms of theology but as a person, as a leader, I highly appreciate him. If there is something I would highlight, it is that he supports his words by his actions, and secondly, I would say, his humility as a leader. I remember that the first time we met, we were expecting a short, brief, formal audience.

But for the first 10 minutes he took his time to get to know me as a person. He didn't ask me anything about the Ahmadiyya community, my doctrines, my faith understanding, it was just who am I as a person. And then he shared his own personal anecdotes as Jorge Bergoglio from his time in Buenos Aires. And when he addressed issues, he would always say “we”, he wouldn't talk about “you” or the “society” or “mankind”, he would include himself.

At the end, because of his physical problems, we asked him to just say the farewell from his desk, but he made the effort to walk with us all the way up to the door, and he said he was so glad we’d come for this conversation.

These are gestures that show his greatness as a leader. That's why I deeply appreciate him, and I'm very grateful, and I really hope that the Church, but also humanity, would pay more attention to his words and to his message.