A question: If the obstinate party refuses to meet with his bishop or pastor, canonically, has he/she self-excommunicated? Is it within the providence of the bishop(s) to make a public statement that the individual has refused a pastoral meeting?
Well. I was so cheered by this report but made the mistake of reading other news coverage of the Pope’s remarks. Reading any of the other articles seemed to put a diametrically opposite spin on the words of the Pope. Were his words (once again) this lacking in clarity? Or is this bad faith reporting from the other institutions? Or maybe I’m just not getting the subtlety? It’s honestly confusing and demoralizing…
Nothing new here, it seems. Pope still is very outspoken against abortion but is not willing to take a hard stand on US matters. Which really isn't his place. The bishops here should be pastors to their flock. Including taking people to task who don't follow God's will.
would be nice to have entire transcript; I don't want to think that Pillar has picked phrases that support their views, though that is certainly the case for other media sources that like to pit the "conservative" US bishops against the more loving Pope.
“The focus, he said, should not be on labeling individuals as “excommunicated,” but instead considering them to be people “temporarily outside of the community”
Seems like Bergoglio doublespeak to me. Jesus said, “say yes when you mean yes, say no when you mean no.” Bergoglio seems incapable of taking a stand.
I wish the Pope would simply stop giving interviews or answering questions off the cuff. He is not a clear thinker and what comes out of his mouth is often a mix of ideas in strange juxtaposition.
“the problem is not theological, it is pastoral, how we bishops manage this principle pastorally.”
logically, it seems what has been the jargon for some time is presently witnessed, id est, that being 'pastoral' is not being 'theological' or that being 'theological' is not being 'pastoral', rather one cannot be theological and pastoral: the one who is theological is not pastoral and the one who is pastoral is not theological; nor must they be, for it would be rigid - is this the Teaching - for one to be pastoral they are not theological; if they are theological they are not pastoral???
To be pastoral then is to excommunicate the theological, for the 'theological' is a deadly virus to the 'pastoral', thus the pastoral must be vaccinated from the theological out of love for others and the sake of the common good; to be theological is a climate tsunami to the pastoral???
So Christ cannot be pastoral because He is the Theological - poor Jesus, one might bet that He does not know this....but that would an error....but Jesus does need to realize that anyone who is in need of circumcision of their deadly sins of supporting, advocating, protecting and multiplying abortion to the ends of the earth, cannot have the (political) condemnation of being forbidden to eat the (New) Passover Lamb - hurry though, because we have to correct the A-Pastoral Trinity and His Sacred Scripture where He does just this: "this is the Ordinance of the Passover: anyone among you who wants to Celebrate the Lord’s Passover must become circumcised; then they may take part like one circumcised of their sins. No uncircumcised soul may Eat the Passover Lamb, if they do they will be guilty of sinning against the Passover Lamb" (cf Exodus 12:48; 1 Cor 11:27).
Just maybe the Beloved has all this right: manage everything theologically and it will be pastoral, do not, and you are neither pastoral nor theological. I AM with Christ Jesus, He's Right.
Christ, circumcised or innocent and without blemish of sin: “the problem is theological, how My bishops let Me witness My principle's Theologically, for this is pastoral.”
Then there is this:
When it comes to excommunication itself, St. Paul gave the rationale, establishing firmly that it is a pastoral tool:
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. [1 Cor 5:1-7]
love one another as I have loved you… for this I have Come into the world, to give witness to the truth: love rejoices in the Truth, it takes no pleasure in evil (John 13:34; 18:37b; 1 Cor 13:6)
Is the problem with the sexual immorality of same-sex union pastoral, devoid of the theological infusion, breath of God – well, “the Holy Spirit has led us into all Truth”....
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
[a]: 1 Corinthians 5:11 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[b]
A question: If the obstinate party refuses to meet with his bishop or pastor, canonically, has he/she self-excommunicated? Is it within the providence of the bishop(s) to make a public statement that the individual has refused a pastoral meeting?
Well. I was so cheered by this report but made the mistake of reading other news coverage of the Pope’s remarks. Reading any of the other articles seemed to put a diametrically opposite spin on the words of the Pope. Were his words (once again) this lacking in clarity? Or is this bad faith reporting from the other institutions? Or maybe I’m just not getting the subtlety? It’s honestly confusing and demoralizing…
Nothing new here, it seems. Pope still is very outspoken against abortion but is not willing to take a hard stand on US matters. Which really isn't his place. The bishops here should be pastors to their flock. Including taking people to task who don't follow God's will.
would be nice to have entire transcript; I don't want to think that Pillar has picked phrases that support their views, though that is certainly the case for other media sources that like to pit the "conservative" US bishops against the more loving Pope.
also, I just want to say I'm in favor of comments being on for more articles recently. I like seeing what others think!
“The focus, he said, should not be on labeling individuals as “excommunicated,” but instead considering them to be people “temporarily outside of the community”
Seems like Bergoglio doublespeak to me. Jesus said, “say yes when you mean yes, say no when you mean no.” Bergoglio seems incapable of taking a stand.
I wish the Pope would simply stop giving interviews or answering questions off the cuff. He is not a clear thinker and what comes out of his mouth is often a mix of ideas in strange juxtaposition.
“the problem is not theological, it is pastoral, how we bishops manage this principle pastorally.”
logically, it seems what has been the jargon for some time is presently witnessed, id est, that being 'pastoral' is not being 'theological' or that being 'theological' is not being 'pastoral', rather one cannot be theological and pastoral: the one who is theological is not pastoral and the one who is pastoral is not theological; nor must they be, for it would be rigid - is this the Teaching - for one to be pastoral they are not theological; if they are theological they are not pastoral???
To be pastoral then is to excommunicate the theological, for the 'theological' is a deadly virus to the 'pastoral', thus the pastoral must be vaccinated from the theological out of love for others and the sake of the common good; to be theological is a climate tsunami to the pastoral???
So Christ cannot be pastoral because He is the Theological - poor Jesus, one might bet that He does not know this....but that would an error....but Jesus does need to realize that anyone who is in need of circumcision of their deadly sins of supporting, advocating, protecting and multiplying abortion to the ends of the earth, cannot have the (political) condemnation of being forbidden to eat the (New) Passover Lamb - hurry though, because we have to correct the A-Pastoral Trinity and His Sacred Scripture where He does just this: "this is the Ordinance of the Passover: anyone among you who wants to Celebrate the Lord’s Passover must become circumcised; then they may take part like one circumcised of their sins. No uncircumcised soul may Eat the Passover Lamb, if they do they will be guilty of sinning against the Passover Lamb" (cf Exodus 12:48; 1 Cor 11:27).
Just maybe the Beloved has all this right: manage everything theologically and it will be pastoral, do not, and you are neither pastoral nor theological. I AM with Christ Jesus, He's Right.
Christ, circumcised or innocent and without blemish of sin: “the problem is theological, how My bishops let Me witness My principle's Theologically, for this is pastoral.”
Then there is this:
When it comes to excommunication itself, St. Paul gave the rationale, establishing firmly that it is a pastoral tool:
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. [1 Cor 5:1-7]
https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/francis-knows-church-is-in-rut-but-does-he-know-why/
love one another as I have loved you… for this I have Come into the world, to give witness to the truth: love rejoices in the Truth, it takes no pleasure in evil (John 13:34; 18:37b; 1 Cor 13:6)
Is the problem with the sexual immorality of same-sex union pastoral, devoid of the theological infusion, breath of God – well, “the Holy Spirit has led us into all Truth”....
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
[a]: 1 Corinthians 5:11 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[b]
[b]: 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7