This. This was my impression - gosh how sad is it that people are willing to fight in court to get their name off a baptismal register and even sadder that catechesis has failed so hard that nobody understands why it’s impossible to be unbaptized 😑
> "The Church fears it like the devil fears holy water when confronted with the GDPR,” he claimed. “It uses all kinds of theological and ecclesiastical arguments for this and invokes religious freedom.”
"The Church used theological arguments! All your Pokemon have fainted!", or something like that.
The LDS church allows members to remove their baptismal records, and they actually consider the sacramental effect of the baptism to be wiped out, too. A former member who returns to the faith has to be baptized again. This is a signal difference between Catholic (Christian) and Latter-Day Saint theology! I'm frankly surprised to see so many Belgian Catholics who seem to have adopted the LDS sacramental theology wholesale.
Wow, I did not know the LDS church believed the effect of baptism could be removed. The Belgian Church, like so many places in the Church, seems to suffer from very poor formation. Judging by outcomes, anyway. Lord, raise up the saints you need and let us not be afraid to be called.
Ohhh I didn’t realize living people had to get their own self baptized - when you start making up stuff why not just go all the way you know? Baptize whomever you want 😂
Yes the idea of it is that baptisms for the dead are presenting the dead person with the choice to accept or reject Christ's salvation/covenant. The baptismal theology is screwy but it's sort of an elegant solution to the same question Rahner tries to answer by positing anonymous Christians.
Living people, of course, are capable of choosing baptism (at 8 years old, officially) therefore one would not undergo the ordinance on their behalf.
This is an interesting problem. In some localities, this is a public record. For most, this is a private record with PII and subject to data retention and destruction policies and laws. The real question is can a private entity with an established relationship, retain privately PII according to their own retention policy?
I wonder if would help avoid conflict if the Church restricted dissemination of the fact of baptism when requested. The Church would have the information necessary to comply with laws about marriage (or declarations of nullity) but would not publish in a public manner.
Also, I have to ask, are those convicted of murder allowed to demand removal of those historical facts from government records? What about old copies of newspapers? The government was shown to have the ability to erase human memories in movies like the The Incredibles. Should your godparent be required to undergo that process?
To your question about murderers...largely yes. They can require google results not to show it, etc. In Germany, for example, the accused are now referred to as First Name Last initial (Stephen C.) to help comply with this law. To some degree I get it, to a much larger degree it’s terrifying.
Why would one go to such lengths to be "debabtised" (Not even Google recognises the word)? What does it accomplish? I can only thing of the case when the person is/was muslim and fears to be considered an apostate.
Probably for its "statement value" of showing to others that one renounced the Church.
Of course, it would certainly help prove one's claim of having been debaptized if there was a baptismal entry with a corresponding note in the margin. Otherwise the skeptical people that one bragged to about debaptizing to may not believe you.
It might be a statement, but I don't think it needs to be. It's an emotional reaction. Given that it's an emotional reaction to a documentary on child sexual abuse, it's an extreme emotional reaction.
It accomplishes a separation from what they feel is a moral abomination. It is the ending of a covenant, the same basic notion as disowning a family member. "Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’" Only a human saying that to the Church has a slightly different effect than when Jesus says it to a human.
There's something of a distinction between falling away, and apostatizing; between neglecting and rejecting. They are rejecting, and they want the physical record to reflect that.
Yes, they do. I think it has something to do with pairing information with music. Music tends to skip over the reason when moving the emotions. Written media don't have quite the same effect.
It would be very interesting to see what effect could be had from a documentary on the correlation between child sexual abusers and men who cohabitate with single mothers.
Or the correlation between Mass attendance and incidents of euthanasia... say, in Belgium, for example. I suspect that the correlation is there and that, theologically speaking, it'd be easy to make the connection between correlation and causation.
Anti-Christianity will progress until church buildings are razed and religious are refused residency rights unless they denounce their religion. Governments have the power to do everything their office holders want, including ignoring written promises and redefining words. A relatively small group of nasty and not very bright zealots have become effective rulers of the Western world.
There is the matter of people baptized as infants or children not being adequately catechized. One could argue that only a poorly catechized person would desire to leave the Church. They aren’t entirely blameworthy. In fact, it seems cruel to hold a person to the standards of a disciple of Christ without properly catechizing them. And the Church certainly would be healthier without the dead wood.
I say this in a reply below, but I'm surprised to see Latter-Day Saint theology of baptism so prominently (and certainly unknowingly) embraced in Belgium
Can we all pause and tsk tsk the politician who compared the Church to Google? A well-organized, profitable, modern and advanced global business compared to the Catholic Church? C’mon. The Church is literally one of the slowest moving entities on earth, is declining almost everywhere, and is constantly blindsided by the world at almost every angle.
I don't know where I stand with this GDPR play, but I know comparing Holy Church to Google is the epitome of “not getting it”.
More than a half-million Germans taking the trouble to *formally* quit the Catholic Church in Germany in 2022 is an utterly shocking, jaw-dropping statistic. On that basis alone, one would think that Katholische Kirche Deutschland must easily qualify as Catholicism's unhealthiest, worst-run branch. And, yet, all facts and logic to the contrary, the Teutonic church styles itself as Catholicism's vanguard, leading the way with all sorts of bright ideas to improve the faith. In any other organization, the leaders of the far-and-away worst branch would be hanging their heads in shaming and quietly advising their confreres to do the *opposite* of everything they do. It takes a very, very special kind of arrogance for the biggest failure in a large group to fancy himself/herself as the leader of the group!
Well, being a practicing Catholic is very much a localized phenomenon. We live in our specific dioceses; and we attend local parishes. If hundreds of thousands of people are quitting Katholische Kirche Deutschland, yes, that IS on the local church. Who else would it be on? No Catholic wakes up one morning in Erfurt, and says, "The Archbishop of Tegucigalpa did something that I don't like. I'm out!" I suppose that that one can always pin some blame on the Vatican, but that's weak sauce when the rest of the Catholic world isn't leaving in droves like the Germans.
--> Having Belgian family members (through my wife), this is a sad situation on a personal level. One family member did, indeed, request to be "debaptized"; and he is not going to have his child (a beautiful 2-year-old) baptized. **EDIT: I'm not certain, now, that the family member actually went through with the "debaptism". It was talked about with vehemence, but it may not have actually happened.**
--> We were there for the Christmas holidays, and Mass attendance was pretty sparse. For the Feast of the Holy Family (Sunday, Dec. 31), there was only one Mass in the sector (about 8-10 parishes). Yet everyone who showed up for the Mass was easily able to fit in the small rural church, a charming 11th century Romanesque building. A make-shift altar was set up in the middle of the nave, with the congregation encircling it. The presiding priest made up his own Eucharistic Prayer (but kept the Words of Institution, thank goodness).
A historical fact is a historical fact. Doing paperwork to lie about it just makes you a liar. It does not change the fact.
Well, don't forget that TWAW, so nothing new here.
It seems today, the popular way to go is to change history to fit the narrative you want. If they ignore it, it never happened apparently
What a sad story.
This. This was my impression - gosh how sad is it that people are willing to fight in court to get their name off a baptismal register and even sadder that catechesis has failed so hard that nobody understands why it’s impossible to be unbaptized 😑
> "The Church fears it like the devil fears holy water when confronted with the GDPR,” he claimed. “It uses all kinds of theological and ecclesiastical arguments for this and invokes religious freedom.”
"The Church used theological arguments! All your Pokemon have fainted!", or something like that.
First the Church invokes religious freedom, next thing you know, it'll be demanding to provide the sacraments to the faithful. Where does it end?
Maybe the Mormons who run the genealogy sites and need our records will come to our defense.
The LDS church allows members to remove their baptismal records, and they actually consider the sacramental effect of the baptism to be wiped out, too. A former member who returns to the faith has to be baptized again. This is a signal difference between Catholic (Christian) and Latter-Day Saint theology! I'm frankly surprised to see so many Belgian Catholics who seem to have adopted the LDS sacramental theology wholesale.
Wow, I did not know the LDS church believed the effect of baptism could be removed. The Belgian Church, like so many places in the Church, seems to suffer from very poor formation. Judging by outcomes, anyway. Lord, raise up the saints you need and let us not be afraid to be called.
I think it’s not so much that they have adopted LDS sacramental theology as that they have no sacramental theology to speak of to begin with.
This is of course correct, but what a vivid illustration of 'this is not a new heresy'
LDS also do "baptism by proxy" if I recall correctly, and I wonder how that factors in...
(Of course, it doesn't actually mean anything, but what a record keeping nightmare...)
Baptism by proxy, and even for dead people.
Baptism by proxy, only for dead people, actually
Ohhh I didn’t realize living people had to get their own self baptized - when you start making up stuff why not just go all the way you know? Baptize whomever you want 😂
Yes the idea of it is that baptisms for the dead are presenting the dead person with the choice to accept or reject Christ's salvation/covenant. The baptismal theology is screwy but it's sort of an elegant solution to the same question Rahner tries to answer by positing anonymous Christians.
Living people, of course, are capable of choosing baptism (at 8 years old, officially) therefore one would not undergo the ordinance on their behalf.
This is an interesting problem. In some localities, this is a public record. For most, this is a private record with PII and subject to data retention and destruction policies and laws. The real question is can a private entity with an established relationship, retain privately PII according to their own retention policy?
I wonder if would help avoid conflict if the Church restricted dissemination of the fact of baptism when requested. The Church would have the information necessary to comply with laws about marriage (or declarations of nullity) but would not publish in a public manner.
Also, I have to ask, are those convicted of murder allowed to demand removal of those historical facts from government records? What about old copies of newspapers? The government was shown to have the ability to erase human memories in movies like the The Incredibles. Should your godparent be required to undergo that process?
For that matter, the Church should be able to protect itself from the "delisted" having a memory of being in the baptismal register.
To your question about murderers...largely yes. They can require google results not to show it, etc. In Germany, for example, the accused are now referred to as First Name Last initial (Stephen C.) to help comply with this law. To some degree I get it, to a much larger degree it’s terrifying.
Can I get the state to force Taco Bell to destroy all record of my purchase(s)? I want to get detacoed.
I believe the gym is the only way to get rid of the legacies of tacos
I have it on good authority that a purgatory of Charmin Mega Rolls is also necessary unless there has been a plenary indulgence obtained.
Why would one go to such lengths to be "debabtised" (Not even Google recognises the word)? What does it accomplish? I can only thing of the case when the person is/was muslim and fears to be considered an apostate.
Probably for its "statement value" of showing to others that one renounced the Church.
Of course, it would certainly help prove one's claim of having been debaptized if there was a baptismal entry with a corresponding note in the margin. Otherwise the skeptical people that one bragged to about debaptizing to may not believe you.
It might be a statement, but I don't think it needs to be. It's an emotional reaction. Given that it's an emotional reaction to a documentary on child sexual abuse, it's an extreme emotional reaction.
It accomplishes a separation from what they feel is a moral abomination. It is the ending of a covenant, the same basic notion as disowning a family member. "Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’" Only a human saying that to the Church has a slightly different effect than when Jesus says it to a human.
There's something of a distinction between falling away, and apostatizing; between neglecting and rejecting. They are rejecting, and they want the physical record to reflect that.
Still... In that case you might want written proof of it.ofnyou want a physical record.
However, being an emotional response, as you rightly put it, it doesn't have to be logical, or even make sense.
Or you want to obliterate all evidence of any connection whatsoever.
Rightly ordered emotional responses are reasonable and sensible. This one isn't rightly ordered.
// Given that it's an emotional reaction to a documentary on child sexual abuse, it's an extreme emotional reaction. //
Film and electronic media have a nearly hypnotic power over many if not nearly all their consumers to confect and alter beliefs.
Yes, they do. I think it has something to do with pairing information with music. Music tends to skip over the reason when moving the emotions. Written media don't have quite the same effect.
It would be very interesting to see what effect could be had from a documentary on the correlation between child sexual abusers and men who cohabitate with single mothers.
Or the correlation between Mass attendance and incidents of euthanasia... say, in Belgium, for example. I suspect that the correlation is there and that, theologically speaking, it'd be easy to make the connection between correlation and causation.
Anti-Christianity will progress until church buildings are razed and religious are refused residency rights unless they denounce their religion. Governments have the power to do everything their office holders want, including ignoring written promises and redefining words. A relatively small group of nasty and not very bright zealots have become effective rulers of the Western world.
It seems that these baptismal records are the business records and property of the Church and they alone should control what they do with them.
There is the matter of people baptized as infants or children not being adequately catechized. One could argue that only a poorly catechized person would desire to leave the Church. They aren’t entirely blameworthy. In fact, it seems cruel to hold a person to the standards of a disciple of Christ without properly catechizing them. And the Church certainly would be healthier without the dead wood.
I say this in a reply below, but I'm surprised to see Latter-Day Saint theology of baptism so prominently (and certainly unknowingly) embraced in Belgium
Can we all pause and tsk tsk the politician who compared the Church to Google? A well-organized, profitable, modern and advanced global business compared to the Catholic Church? C’mon. The Church is literally one of the slowest moving entities on earth, is declining almost everywhere, and is constantly blindsided by the world at almost every angle.
I don't know where I stand with this GDPR play, but I know comparing Holy Church to Google is the epitome of “not getting it”.
The Catholic Church has been doing Baptism registers for hundreds of years. To ask us to change our whole system now is ... overly progressive.
More than a half-million Germans taking the trouble to *formally* quit the Catholic Church in Germany in 2022 is an utterly shocking, jaw-dropping statistic. On that basis alone, one would think that Katholische Kirche Deutschland must easily qualify as Catholicism's unhealthiest, worst-run branch. And, yet, all facts and logic to the contrary, the Teutonic church styles itself as Catholicism's vanguard, leading the way with all sorts of bright ideas to improve the faith. In any other organization, the leaders of the far-and-away worst branch would be hanging their heads in shaming and quietly advising their confreres to do the *opposite* of everything they do. It takes a very, very special kind of arrogance for the biggest failure in a large group to fancy himself/herself as the leader of the group!
You seem to suggest the resignations are related exclusively to matters of the Church in Germany. I doubt that is the case.
Well, being a practicing Catholic is very much a localized phenomenon. We live in our specific dioceses; and we attend local parishes. If hundreds of thousands of people are quitting Katholische Kirche Deutschland, yes, that IS on the local church. Who else would it be on? No Catholic wakes up one morning in Erfurt, and says, "The Archbishop of Tegucigalpa did something that I don't like. I'm out!" I suppose that that one can always pin some blame on the Vatican, but that's weak sauce when the rest of the Catholic world isn't leaving in droves like the Germans.
"leaving" is this case means no longer paying the Church Tax. Nothing more. Yes, many are responding to the world wide child abuse scandal.
The Kirchensteuer is a stupid, poisonous idea. It should be abolished.
So people are resigning from paying a stupid poisonous tax, not necessarily the failures of the German bishops?
The Kirchensteuer and German episcopacy are coterminous. The latter consistently oppose any effort to curtail the former.
--> Having Belgian family members (through my wife), this is a sad situation on a personal level. One family member did, indeed, request to be "debaptized"; and he is not going to have his child (a beautiful 2-year-old) baptized. **EDIT: I'm not certain, now, that the family member actually went through with the "debaptism". It was talked about with vehemence, but it may not have actually happened.**
--> We were there for the Christmas holidays, and Mass attendance was pretty sparse. For the Feast of the Holy Family (Sunday, Dec. 31), there was only one Mass in the sector (about 8-10 parishes). Yet everyone who showed up for the Mass was easily able to fit in the small rural church, a charming 11th century Romanesque building. A make-shift altar was set up in the middle of the nave, with the congregation encircling it. The presiding priest made up his own Eucharistic Prayer (but kept the Words of Institution, thank goodness).
Stunning and heartbreaking.
Can a former Nazi get "unlisted" from public records?