The wickedness of bishops and the wickedness of those who do not hold them accountable is one of the greatest proofs against those who believe that everyone goes to heaven.
In all good faith, I don't understand how the universalist position can reconcile itself to Luke 17: "“Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble."
I have no idea if any particular bishop has caused someone to stumble, but I do see plenty of stumbling. It seems obvious that more than zero clergy have caused people to stumble, surely their fate must be worse than a grizzly death at sea?
hi again, Aidan! first of all, thanks for being willing to discuss in good faith.
the way that I would understand the passage you have quoted is that there can be punishments and consequences worse than drowning with a millstone ties to your neck, but not as bad as eternal suffering. those among the Fathers who were universalists were not unwilling to speak of how horrible the torments of hell can be for those who have committed serious sins. we universalists claim that these punishments are aimed principally at correction and chastisement, however, rather than vengeance, and that it is impossible for the just God who is love to create someone He knows is destined for eternal rejection and suffering. this would not be merely a temporary evil permitted to bring forth some other good, but a permanent evil willed in itself. the most common response is that eternal torment is required in order for there to be free creatures, but I would say that comes from an incorrect understanding of freedom; we are not capable of sin because of freedom, but rather because our freedom is marred by ignorance of our ultimate end, God. God will eventually free everyone of ignorance and false desire, so there will be no ultimate rejection of God.
Your idea of "eternal rejection" seems to believe that hell is full of people who have been rejected by God, where it seems much more logical that it is a place full of people who have rejected God. God created Satan, but Luke 10 tells us that Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning from the sky. Why would God let him fall but not us?
You correctly note that the issue is how the free will we are granted by virtue of being created in the image of God can be aligned with the true freedom of life in Christ. Luther saw this justification as being imputed, rather as you claim we will all be freed from false desire whether we want it or not. The Catholic view of justification is that grace works through nature, that we have to participate in our salvation through the sacraments, that unless we actively accept sanctifying grace we will freeze ourselves out of God's presence. This is absolutely fundamental Catholicism, as taught by the Council of Trent, that is much easier to reconcile with scripture than universalism.
to be clear, the rejection that constitutes hell goes both ways: the damned reject God, and God rejects them. that much is clearly Scriptural. "I will deny them before my Father", "Depart from me", etc.
God certainly does "let us fall", like the fallen angels. but I think God loves us too much to leave us that way, as the common saying goes. think of the parables of Christ- the shepherd leaves the 99 sheep to go after one. I don't think God will stop going after some sheep just because they have died; after all, Christ has defeated and destroyed death so that now *nothing* can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, including mortal sins. He was made sin, so that when we run away from the Father, we run straight into the outstretched arms of the Son.
I don't really see what imputation or infusion has to do with this. yes, God saves through the sacraments, and I believe all of the damned will eventually receive the sacrament that Christ is.
as for eternal hell being easier to reconcile with Scripture, I disagree. the Scriptures do not have one consistent picture of hell, but in no place do they speak of eternal torment. and in many places, they speak of universal salvation. we can discuss individual passages if you would like to.
So eventually all will receive the sacrament whether they will it or not? Satan and all? That seems crackers, to be frank. Is that what you mean by God is love? The eventual overwhelming of every other will in the universe?
This is the most accurate portrayal of the state of the diocese I have ever read. It is impossible to reconcile the Vatican’s stated wish for transparency on sexual abuse cases with the lack of ANY action on the novel treatment of this seminarian. The diocese has lost roughly 8 priests since this bishop took office (maybe more), and priests don’t quit and find other jobs on a whim. Starting this afternoon, he will no doubt be calling in priests to attempt to learn who talked to The Pillar for this article.
And the abusive seminarian is only one part of the myriad problems here.
Huh. Didn't take em long to get rid of our old Bishop in West Tennessee; he was only here two years. That was a wild ride. For the priests anyway; I felt bad for them. What is it with us getting wacky bishops in TN? I'm sorry, my eastern brethren!
I can only imagine what +Fernandez (formerly of Arecibo, PR) is going through watching this "Knoxville Nightmare" unfold and waking up each day to see +Stika still in office.
It is soul crushing, I know. The moral injury inflicted is real and devastating. I can only pray the priests and lay faithful who are committed to the Truth and the Good will endure this trial. God is faithful, even if/when those who are anointed to him are not.
I will ask St. Rita of Cascia to pray for the diocese.
If it's a miracle when St Anthony finds stuff then there are miracles in my house ALL the time... "God, have you seen my shoes anywhe-- oh thanks". I think it is just part of the ordinary life of a believer. If he had dropped a ring in a river and then someone found it, I would be impressed, or alarmed I guess.
"In fact, the case is being watched closely by priests in other parts of the country, who wonder how — or whether — concerns about their own bishops would be treated at the Vatican..."
I can tell you, as priests in my Diocese whisper to one another about our own Bishop, that the above statement is very true. We don't understand why bishops are almost never held accountable, and priests are supposed to yield to the demands and whims of a bishop no matter how abusive or unreasonable. And this affects not only priests, but the people we are called to serve.
I love the Church; I love our faith. But something has to change.
I'm in a parish in NY, so it's a bit different, but one gets a bit tired when one hears of the kinds of shenanigans that one expects from televangelists.
I grew up in the Bible Belt (which was a bit difficult as a Catholic, yes), and my paternal grandma was an evangelical Protestant. When Oral Roberts did the late 1980s thing about "give me money or Jesus will call me home", my grandma said, "Jesus can have him." While she did continue to donate to some televangelists after that, she was a bit more selective afterwards.
Look, we do believe in many miracles as Catholics, but when it's obvious that someone is working a ploy.... COME ON.
While for good reason Dante is not recognized as a saint... there is very good reason he populated Inferno with many bishops and Popes. These are the men who should know better, and many times, they seem to think they are surrounded by credulous hicks. Oh, honey. St. Catherine of Siena, pray that they get correction.
I believe Sitka is an egotist and has psychiatric issues that need evaluation by competent professionals...perhaps add Cupich, Tobin and Martin as well. Our beloved Church needs a deep moral cleansing.
Thanks for covering this. Any idea how much the local lay faithful are aware of this situation? I would not be surprised if a majority of “average Catholics” in the diocese know very little of this. If most were aware and upset, then withholding donations from the annual bishop’s appeal (whatever it’s called there) would send an impactful message. Regardless this situation is frustrating and I pray for the people and priests of the diocese.
My wife and I have been contemplating a retirement move to the territory of the Knoxville diocese. We have visited it intended at Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. But I have to wonder how long this Bishop will be around, because he does not seem the type to keep his See viable.
The wickedness of bishops and the wickedness of those who do not hold them accountable is one of the greatest proofs against those who believe that everyone goes to heaven.
hello Father! I'm a universalist. I don't see how this is a proof against the universalist position at all. could you explain that a little more?
In all good faith, I don't understand how the universalist position can reconcile itself to Luke 17: "“Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble."
I have no idea if any particular bishop has caused someone to stumble, but I do see plenty of stumbling. It seems obvious that more than zero clergy have caused people to stumble, surely their fate must be worse than a grizzly death at sea?
hi again, Aidan! first of all, thanks for being willing to discuss in good faith.
the way that I would understand the passage you have quoted is that there can be punishments and consequences worse than drowning with a millstone ties to your neck, but not as bad as eternal suffering. those among the Fathers who were universalists were not unwilling to speak of how horrible the torments of hell can be for those who have committed serious sins. we universalists claim that these punishments are aimed principally at correction and chastisement, however, rather than vengeance, and that it is impossible for the just God who is love to create someone He knows is destined for eternal rejection and suffering. this would not be merely a temporary evil permitted to bring forth some other good, but a permanent evil willed in itself. the most common response is that eternal torment is required in order for there to be free creatures, but I would say that comes from an incorrect understanding of freedom; we are not capable of sin because of freedom, but rather because our freedom is marred by ignorance of our ultimate end, God. God will eventually free everyone of ignorance and false desire, so there will be no ultimate rejection of God.
Your idea of "eternal rejection" seems to believe that hell is full of people who have been rejected by God, where it seems much more logical that it is a place full of people who have rejected God. God created Satan, but Luke 10 tells us that Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning from the sky. Why would God let him fall but not us?
You correctly note that the issue is how the free will we are granted by virtue of being created in the image of God can be aligned with the true freedom of life in Christ. Luther saw this justification as being imputed, rather as you claim we will all be freed from false desire whether we want it or not. The Catholic view of justification is that grace works through nature, that we have to participate in our salvation through the sacraments, that unless we actively accept sanctifying grace we will freeze ourselves out of God's presence. This is absolutely fundamental Catholicism, as taught by the Council of Trent, that is much easier to reconcile with scripture than universalism.
to be clear, the rejection that constitutes hell goes both ways: the damned reject God, and God rejects them. that much is clearly Scriptural. "I will deny them before my Father", "Depart from me", etc.
God certainly does "let us fall", like the fallen angels. but I think God loves us too much to leave us that way, as the common saying goes. think of the parables of Christ- the shepherd leaves the 99 sheep to go after one. I don't think God will stop going after some sheep just because they have died; after all, Christ has defeated and destroyed death so that now *nothing* can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, including mortal sins. He was made sin, so that when we run away from the Father, we run straight into the outstretched arms of the Son.
I don't really see what imputation or infusion has to do with this. yes, God saves through the sacraments, and I believe all of the damned will eventually receive the sacrament that Christ is.
as for eternal hell being easier to reconcile with Scripture, I disagree. the Scriptures do not have one consistent picture of hell, but in no place do they speak of eternal torment. and in many places, they speak of universal salvation. we can discuss individual passages if you would like to.
So eventually all will receive the sacrament whether they will it or not? Satan and all? That seems crackers, to be frank. Is that what you mean by God is love? The eventual overwhelming of every other will in the universe?
> and that it is impossible for the just God who is love to create someone He knows is destined for eternal rejection and suffering.
At this point everyone else is thinking about church fathers but I (owing to a misspent youth) am thinking about So You Want To Be A Wizard.
This is the most accurate portrayal of the state of the diocese I have ever read. It is impossible to reconcile the Vatican’s stated wish for transparency on sexual abuse cases with the lack of ANY action on the novel treatment of this seminarian. The diocese has lost roughly 8 priests since this bishop took office (maybe more), and priests don’t quit and find other jobs on a whim. Starting this afternoon, he will no doubt be calling in priests to attempt to learn who talked to The Pillar for this article.
And the abusive seminarian is only one part of the myriad problems here.
Huh. Didn't take em long to get rid of our old Bishop in West Tennessee; he was only here two years. That was a wild ride. For the priests anyway; I felt bad for them. What is it with us getting wacky bishops in TN? I'm sorry, my eastern brethren!
I can only imagine what +Fernandez (formerly of Arecibo, PR) is going through watching this "Knoxville Nightmare" unfold and waking up each day to see +Stika still in office.
Same for Bp. Holley.
It is soul crushing, I know. The moral injury inflicted is real and devastating. I can only pray the priests and lay faithful who are committed to the Truth and the Good will endure this trial. God is faithful, even if/when those who are anointed to him are not.
They are trying, but they are human. One can take only so much mental and emotional abuse.
I will ask St. Rita of Cascia to pray for the diocese.
If it's a miracle when St Anthony finds stuff then there are miracles in my house ALL the time... "God, have you seen my shoes anywhe-- oh thanks". I think it is just part of the ordinary life of a believer. If he had dropped a ring in a river and then someone found it, I would be impressed, or alarmed I guess.
"In fact, the case is being watched closely by priests in other parts of the country, who wonder how — or whether — concerns about their own bishops would be treated at the Vatican..."
I can tell you, as priests in my Diocese whisper to one another about our own Bishop, that the above statement is very true. We don't understand why bishops are almost never held accountable, and priests are supposed to yield to the demands and whims of a bishop no matter how abusive or unreasonable. And this affects not only priests, but the people we are called to serve.
I love the Church; I love our faith. But something has to change.
Bishop Stika has nothing on me. I have a similar miracle involving my car keys about once a month!
Tile, the tech invention that finds lost car keys is a "miracle."
I'm in a parish in NY, so it's a bit different, but one gets a bit tired when one hears of the kinds of shenanigans that one expects from televangelists.
I grew up in the Bible Belt (which was a bit difficult as a Catholic, yes), and my paternal grandma was an evangelical Protestant. When Oral Roberts did the late 1980s thing about "give me money or Jesus will call me home", my grandma said, "Jesus can have him." While she did continue to donate to some televangelists after that, she was a bit more selective afterwards.
Look, we do believe in many miracles as Catholics, but when it's obvious that someone is working a ploy.... COME ON.
While for good reason Dante is not recognized as a saint... there is very good reason he populated Inferno with many bishops and Popes. These are the men who should know better, and many times, they seem to think they are surrounded by credulous hicks. Oh, honey. St. Catherine of Siena, pray that they get correction.
I believe Sitka is an egotist and has psychiatric issues that need evaluation by competent professionals...perhaps add Cupich, Tobin and Martin as well. Our beloved Church needs a deep moral cleansing.
Thanks for covering this. Any idea how much the local lay faithful are aware of this situation? I would not be surprised if a majority of “average Catholics” in the diocese know very little of this. If most were aware and upset, then withholding donations from the annual bishop’s appeal (whatever it’s called there) would send an impactful message. Regardless this situation is frustrating and I pray for the people and priests of the diocese.
My wife and I have been contemplating a retirement move to the territory of the Knoxville diocese. We have visited it intended at Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg. But I have to wonder how long this Bishop will be around, because he does not seem the type to keep his See viable.