From what little I've heard he's recovering well. But we don't know what "recovery" will look like, we don't know how close to his baseline level of health pre illness he'll return to. There's a lot of unknowns. Love him and praying for him, and I hope to see/hear from him soon.
Re: catechesis in the lead up to the solemn and obligatory holy days... Byzantine Catholics have major and minor fasts leading up to some which set a tone of anticipation.
And we had them too in the West, but they've gradually atrophied since the middle ages, with most of the loss occurring in the Renaissance and the 20th century, from what I know.
I haven’t had the chance to listen yet so perhaps my comment is redundant, but something I’ve often thought about regarding HDOs is how much Catholics, even practicing Catholics, are taken by surprise by them. When I was growing up and in school, we all knew that our Jewish classmates, teachers, and colleagues had these holy days in the fall where they’d be absent. We wouldn’t have known the exact date without looking at a calendar, but even non-Jews would have some awareness that this was a “thing”. And Jewish people plan their schedules AROUND these holy days. For Catholics, there’s always this scramble to figure out which Mass they can get to around and between work and school obligations. Virtually no one has planned ahead, taken days or partial days off work or school to accommodate the religious practice—in fact it seems that most people, including those who will actually make sure to get to Mass, don’t realize it’s coming up at all until it’s announced from the pulpit the week before. I suppose this is partly a function of living in a country where these holy days are not also national holidays as they are in some European countries, while also not quite living with the expected tension of being an outsider (as Jewish cultural identity in non-Jewish nations would necessarily have had to develop).
Many churches do include a standard (e.g.) "Daily Mass at 7:00; 7:00 and 5:30 on holy days" in their bulletins. Albeit sometimes there is a last-minute change when the actual week comes.
It seems I seldom hear about masstimes.org anymore, even though it does still exist. These days people seem to prefer going directly to the church website (which did not always really exist in the early-00s heyday of masstimes.org).
Masstimes.org is helpful to a person who is thinking ahead, or I guess once they’ve gotten the reminder about the HDO, but doesn’t help with the lack of cultural context for them. (Like actually knowing about it and celebrating it.)
I know. I was just thinking about how Masstimes.org is still useful but only for people who are already looking for the time. I still use it quite a bit, mostly to find confession times, but also when traveling.
Can that really be true? Ascension Thursday (where it still exists!) is the only one that the is a moveable feast. The ones who don't know the dates must be the same ones who don't actually attend on said dates. For the ones who do attend, leaving aside Christmas as obvious, surely they can commit four dates to memory. The scramble results from churches not always having consistent schedules on these days, but that is not quite the same issue.
I know it FEELS like the ones who do not know the dates must be the same ones who do not attend on said dates, but being a mother and engaging in many conversations about logistics with other mothers over the last 25 years, I can tell you that these dates do in fact sneak up on A LOT of Catholics—particularly when, as JD pointed out, there isn’t a robust culture of actually celebrating them aside from “you take this carload of kids before school and I’ll take the other kids after school/before sports practice.” Christmas is the one exception.
And honestly there aren’t even many resources for HOW to celebrate them if you don’t have some kind of established family or cultural tradition. If you google ways to celebrate the Annunciation (I know, not a HDO but the most recent solemnity), most of what comes up are a few kind of uninspiring crafts, the suggestion to have waffles for dinner (which, I’m sorry, feels uninspiring in the midst of Lent when we have been eating simple and mostly meatless meals already), and to pray a family rosary. Which, great! Family rosary is a fabulous practice! If you already have that established as a daily or at least somewhat regular practice, it still doesn’t feel super celebratory. You know? So even establishing ways to make these days feel festive is kind of lacking inspiration, even when you go looking. I get how they have become afterthoughts. And yet, what a poverty, especially in light of the way Ed described the events of salvation and time in the podcast.
This was a great Catholic conversation, especially during Lent. A lot to chew on here from both JD and Ed, all the way to the quick end comments about family practices in regards to kids and Mass. I thought about trying to share some of my thoughts here but I think they'd come off wrong in a comment box, but would be great around a backyard family bonfire where people could talk back and forth. Or the Pillar Pilgrimage! Very sorry that some family obligations prevent me from going. I hope it isn't the last.
I loved what Ed had to say re: leaving his daughter with a babysitter for Mass.
My husband and his siblings were left with a babysitter before the age of reason, but his pastor unfortunately had a “children are to be seen and not heard” mentality. When he told me this, I was insistent that our kids would go to Mass and be formed in the Mass. I never would’ve thought I’d move an inch on kids at Mass, but now I’ve something to consider…
If the priests would offer an evening mass on Solemnities, maybe there would be some attendance. Also, had a priest one time call them Holy Days of Opportunity. At the solemnity of the Annunciation our priest was all about how he wished more people would come, but there were 2 things I noticed. No announcement or discussion at the Sunday mass, and no evening mass that day, so if you wanted to come, but worked, you were out of luck. That said, things are better than in the 80's when our priest didn't even offer mass for Holy Days of Obligation because "no one comes anyway.":
I guess I'm pro-HDO (similarly pro-Sunday obligation) because even for "committed" Catholics, box-checking can be a first step toward something better. I count myself among those for whom this is true. "If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it by the book" is step 1. Building something more meaningful is step 2. I find the feast of the Immaculate Conception meaningful now, but it used to be nothing more than an exercise in box-checking for me.
Maybe it takes a certain kind of person to want to do something "by the book," though. In our cultural context, it requires some sort of personal, internally imposed adherence to the rules. Only a person with that characteristic cares about the "obligation."
I hope it won't be gauche to touch on a topic that did not come up in this convo. Namely, the mediocrity of a lot of masses. "But it's Christ's sacrifice! How can you call it mediocre?" I know, I know. Saying this probably reflects some failing on my part. But for some masses—ones with awful music and uninspiring if not theologically suspect teaching—obligation is the only thing that can compel a person to attend.
I'm not sure how much you guys would want to say about the topic, but has there been any news about how Pope Francis is progressing at Santa Marta?
It does feel a bit like he was discharged and now we hear nothing. I assume no news is good news? But don't really know.
From what little I've heard he's recovering well. But we don't know what "recovery" will look like, we don't know how close to his baseline level of health pre illness he'll return to. There's a lot of unknowns. Love him and praying for him, and I hope to see/hear from him soon.
Re: catechesis in the lead up to the solemn and obligatory holy days... Byzantine Catholics have major and minor fasts leading up to some which set a tone of anticipation.
And we had them too in the West, but they've gradually atrophied since the middle ages, with most of the loss occurring in the Renaissance and the 20th century, from what I know.
I haven’t had the chance to listen yet so perhaps my comment is redundant, but something I’ve often thought about regarding HDOs is how much Catholics, even practicing Catholics, are taken by surprise by them. When I was growing up and in school, we all knew that our Jewish classmates, teachers, and colleagues had these holy days in the fall where they’d be absent. We wouldn’t have known the exact date without looking at a calendar, but even non-Jews would have some awareness that this was a “thing”. And Jewish people plan their schedules AROUND these holy days. For Catholics, there’s always this scramble to figure out which Mass they can get to around and between work and school obligations. Virtually no one has planned ahead, taken days or partial days off work or school to accommodate the religious practice—in fact it seems that most people, including those who will actually make sure to get to Mass, don’t realize it’s coming up at all until it’s announced from the pulpit the week before. I suppose this is partly a function of living in a country where these holy days are not also national holidays as they are in some European countries, while also not quite living with the expected tension of being an outsider (as Jewish cultural identity in non-Jewish nations would necessarily have had to develop).
Many churches do include a standard (e.g.) "Daily Mass at 7:00; 7:00 and 5:30 on holy days" in their bulletins. Albeit sometimes there is a last-minute change when the actual week comes.
It seems I seldom hear about masstimes.org anymore, even though it does still exist. These days people seem to prefer going directly to the church website (which did not always really exist in the early-00s heyday of masstimes.org).
Masstimes.org is helpful to a person who is thinking ahead, or I guess once they’ve gotten the reminder about the HDO, but doesn’t help with the lack of cultural context for them. (Like actually knowing about it and celebrating it.)
Sure; I was replying to a different sub-comment.
I know. I was just thinking about how Masstimes.org is still useful but only for people who are already looking for the time. I still use it quite a bit, mostly to find confession times, but also when traveling.
Yes…it’s almost like the parish has the same problem of being taken by surprise as the parishioner! Haha!
Can that really be true? Ascension Thursday (where it still exists!) is the only one that the is a moveable feast. The ones who don't know the dates must be the same ones who don't actually attend on said dates. For the ones who do attend, leaving aside Christmas as obvious, surely they can commit four dates to memory. The scramble results from churches not always having consistent schedules on these days, but that is not quite the same issue.
I know it FEELS like the ones who do not know the dates must be the same ones who do not attend on said dates, but being a mother and engaging in many conversations about logistics with other mothers over the last 25 years, I can tell you that these dates do in fact sneak up on A LOT of Catholics—particularly when, as JD pointed out, there isn’t a robust culture of actually celebrating them aside from “you take this carload of kids before school and I’ll take the other kids after school/before sports practice.” Christmas is the one exception.
And honestly there aren’t even many resources for HOW to celebrate them if you don’t have some kind of established family or cultural tradition. If you google ways to celebrate the Annunciation (I know, not a HDO but the most recent solemnity), most of what comes up are a few kind of uninspiring crafts, the suggestion to have waffles for dinner (which, I’m sorry, feels uninspiring in the midst of Lent when we have been eating simple and mostly meatless meals already), and to pray a family rosary. Which, great! Family rosary is a fabulous practice! If you already have that established as a daily or at least somewhat regular practice, it still doesn’t feel super celebratory. You know? So even establishing ways to make these days feel festive is kind of lacking inspiration, even when you go looking. I get how they have become afterthoughts. And yet, what a poverty, especially in light of the way Ed described the events of salvation and time in the podcast.
My experience comports with Grace’s. Many people don’t know it’s here until it’s here.
I wonder if they even know what feast it is each time?
Yes because they are practicing Catholics. There is just not a robust culture of celebrating the Church calendar.
"raised with a sense of hubris"
Should go on JD's next Pillar jacket
I legitimately laughed out loud at this one.
This was a great Catholic conversation, especially during Lent. A lot to chew on here from both JD and Ed, all the way to the quick end comments about family practices in regards to kids and Mass. I thought about trying to share some of my thoughts here but I think they'd come off wrong in a comment box, but would be great around a backyard family bonfire where people could talk back and forth. Or the Pillar Pilgrimage! Very sorry that some family obligations prevent me from going. I hope it isn't the last.
Is there not a bonus episode? I'm always thrown when the main episode downloads but I don't see a bonus ep come with it.
JD, can you please do a bonus episode on the snake handling church? Or share your experience at one?
I loved what Ed had to say re: leaving his daughter with a babysitter for Mass.
My husband and his siblings were left with a babysitter before the age of reason, but his pastor unfortunately had a “children are to be seen and not heard” mentality. When he told me this, I was insistent that our kids would go to Mass and be formed in the Mass. I never would’ve thought I’d move an inch on kids at Mass, but now I’ve something to consider…
“I’m surprised that he couldn’t tell you were a canon lawyer by the width of your phylacteries.”
That was hilarious
If the priests would offer an evening mass on Solemnities, maybe there would be some attendance. Also, had a priest one time call them Holy Days of Opportunity. At the solemnity of the Annunciation our priest was all about how he wished more people would come, but there were 2 things I noticed. No announcement or discussion at the Sunday mass, and no evening mass that day, so if you wanted to come, but worked, you were out of luck. That said, things are better than in the 80's when our priest didn't even offer mass for Holy Days of Obligation because "no one comes anyway.":
I guess I'm pro-HDO (similarly pro-Sunday obligation) because even for "committed" Catholics, box-checking can be a first step toward something better. I count myself among those for whom this is true. "If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it by the book" is step 1. Building something more meaningful is step 2. I find the feast of the Immaculate Conception meaningful now, but it used to be nothing more than an exercise in box-checking for me.
Maybe it takes a certain kind of person to want to do something "by the book," though. In our cultural context, it requires some sort of personal, internally imposed adherence to the rules. Only a person with that characteristic cares about the "obligation."
I hope it won't be gauche to touch on a topic that did not come up in this convo. Namely, the mediocrity of a lot of masses. "But it's Christ's sacrifice! How can you call it mediocre?" I know, I know. Saying this probably reflects some failing on my part. But for some masses—ones with awful music and uninspiring if not theologically suspect teaching—obligation is the only thing that can compel a person to attend.