In my mind, the evangelical target of Eucharistic processions is someone who attends Mass more or less weekly but doesn't believe in the Real Presence. The Eucharistic Congress imo was geared more towards encouragement of those who already pretty all-in(partially because it was expensive & difficult to get to), but parish/diocese level events could easily help those who are kind of bouncing around the parish, but not sure why
I lived in a parish where we first did a Eucharist procession throughout the neighborhood, stopping for benediction at a number of people's homes. A few weeks later the pastor with a few parishioners, all of them Spanish speaking, went house to house through the neighborhood. I don't know how effective this was.
A nearby parish to me did this too! I attended one of the processions and it was lovely. It was moving to see men working on roofs in the neighborhood (there had been a recent hailstorm) stopping as we passed to kneel in the presence of the Eucharist.
As a victim I would much rather see a priest remain in orders so that he isn't out on the streets abusing additional children after he has completed his sentence but left in orders so he can be stuck in a monastery where there are no potential victims and where he is under constant supervision so he won't offend again.
The difficulty with covert narcissists is that if you leave them under constant supervision by a few people who are not professional guards, are they not likely to (eventually) charm those people, work on their sympathies, and convince them that "I am really a great guy and you can turn your back on me"? This is literally what these people are doing currently and it's how they end up in trusted positions. They practically can't *not* do it.
In about 20 years (I am choosing a random number within my probable lifetime) we'll have effective robotic supervision and it might be a solved problem, but I don't know whether I look forward to that specific dystopia.
I was born and raised in the Archdiocese of Washington (the people’s republic of Takoma Park!) and went to high school on North Capitol Street- not exactly cowboy material. But I married a girl whose family has been in Arizona since the 1800s. Eventually we moved out here and she took me to my first rodeo (pun intended).
It’s my new favorite sport. Hands down.
I go to three or four a year at this point. Fun to watch the events, but it’s just as much a cultural experience as it is a sporting event.
You may think the best part is the bronco or bull riding. Fun no doubt, but the thing that will instantly get you hooked is the mutton busting. Not familiar?
It’s a bunch of three year olds holding onto a sheep for dear life for anywhere from 1-5 seconds. Guaranteed, you will be on your feet screaming for little Wyatt or Oaklee (the names of the competitors are also fantastic).
Ed, you must go to one at some point. You will be instantly hooked… and then find yourself browsing cowboy boots online.
You should reach out to Fr. Nathaniel Block. Canon lawyer and judicial vicar of the Diocese of Gallup, but also pastor of Our Lady of the Snow in Snowflake-Taylor, Arizona… it’s one of the most Mormon towns in America, but it’s my favorite church in all of AZ… and it’s practically across the street from the Taylor Rodeo Grounds! Taylor Rodeo is one of the biggest in AZ.
Go to vespers and then walk across the street just in time for the rodeo!
Was he “authorized” to flee the U.S. while the Vatican Secretariat of state (ahem, ahem.. someone had to at least approve his travel expenses from Washington, DC to Rome) mulled” the decision to revoke his diplomatic immunity and release him to U.S. law enforcement.. is the current- and then- US papal nuncio also *IMMUNE* from questions about US (and Canadian) law violation on HIS WATCH while U.S. Nuncio? Or is everybody just stalling until the U.S. nuncio’s upcoming retirement so he won’t have to answer any questions about his involvement? Is the papal nuncio’s *fragility* too much to ask him?
Or perhaps someone should ask the current U.S. President why he allowed a female employee of the U.S. government who committed homicide in the United Kingdom in 2019 - and who had diplomatic immunity - to flee to the United States to avoid prosecution? And why he didn't waive immunity so she could be prosecuted?
To put this in Church terms, relying on diplomatic immunity is "normal absolution", whereas a waiver of immunity is "general absolution." While the latter is allowed in theory, in practice (at least around here) it is and is meant to be very rare.
I always knew I felt a deep mysterious kinship with JD… now I know it’s because we were both Adventures in Odyssey kids. #ConnieAndEugeneBelongTogether
In relation to the music discussion at the beginning, I wonder if the same sort of dynamic is at play with certain demographics who came of age in the church while the St. Louis Jesuits were on the ascendancy… If there is a similar dynamic at play, I will have to be deliberately more charitable. Also, if the Holy Ghost can heal my various neural pathways damaged due to sin, I will pray that he will heal theirs which are damaged due to poor catechesis, theology, musical taste… My love for classic church music and hymns cut very much against the 80s/90s music which formed my neural pathways as a young person.
fwiw, I could believe this! *Intellectually* I understand the value of good music, I want us to use our best for the worship of God, I appreciate the theological depth baked into many traditional hymns... but in my heart of hearts, if I'm out walking alone at dawn, and you see that kind of shadow & rustling that could be a coyote, or is it maybe a wolf? I'm whistling from the OCP hymnal of my 00's suburban childhood parish
> certain demographics who came of age in the church while the St. Louis Jesuits were on the ascendancy
No, that's my demographic. I grew up in literal St Louis. One of the parish priests was a literal Jesuit (not the kind that plays music) and the parish music was of course psalms in vernacular that were set directly to folk guitar by amateurs during the glory days of "Peter Paul & Mary are pretty great, folk music is by folk, and therefore anyone can write it". These were objectively better than Hagan or Haas or Farrell or Joncas or whatever the next generation of the vernacular is. I will fist fight someone in a Denny's parking lot over this.
You will all think this comment is satirical but it is not :)
Also, while I am letting my strong opinions out for a run, I will ABSOLUTELY fist fight whoever updated I Am The Bread Of Life. No one can come to me unless the Father *draw* him is categorically different from unless the Father *beckon*. THIS IS IMPORTANT, PEOPLE. I will bring a posse of mystics to this rumble.
Help a convert brother understand this (a convert who still defaults to the great ‘Wesleyan Screamers’ which can be sung sober or drunk, with our without accompaniment). When I refer to ‘St. Louis Jesuits’ I think of Schutte, Foley SJ (et al). You indicate that this designation is much broader… I would definitely take Psalms set to guitar, over songs which are apparently based upon Psalms, but are actually very poor paraphrases with a range of theological biases dictating lyric choices.
But to your comment above, we sang a real doozie today called ‘Anthem’ by Joncas, which I could not in conscience sing because I struggled to know what in the world it was actually about… I’m not denying that I regularly question myself, but neither do I want to sing ‘we are question’ to everyone in the church. It seems like a song we’re supposed to sing to each other, rather than as a congregation to God…
I think of the band name, I don't know who was in it. But like any band I only remember the good tracks.
Yeah, Anthem (an example of slightly more recent garbage) was on the list that a bishop rightly tried to condemn as ... some word like heretical but maybe not that word. It was fun to play on guitar (I was in a guitar choir in grad school in the 90s) but I'd be very okay with burying it.
If I ask my adult child "why, in your overheard parlance, is it Denny's in particular" I will receive no useful information but maybe the internet knows.
I agree these priest should no longer be in the clerical state... But once that's been juged its done, no? Once they have served their sentence, prononced by the legetimate authorities, well then they are deemed to have recieved their punishment. If they choose a life of penence to go further, that's one thing. If they are able to, having converted, be usefull and make fruitfull their talents in more backtage roles, then it could be a way for them to have some fullfilment in a humble and usefull way. I feel that continuing to be excessivly hasrh once they served their sentence is not justice. They need to find a way where they find some consolation especially to help them stay on the strait and narrow. Being to harsh can make their interior fight untenable, I d'ont see how that's helpfull. I think we should not be looking at the superiors who inherit that situation but to the judges that leave us unsatified with the punishment these priests have recieved and a feeling of injustice. Isn't it also the case for the victimes, looking towards the juges? How can there be justice for either if there is a underlying, infinite, unspoken punishment further than the actual sentence, that everyone has his own opinion of? Are we to apply jugements in stead on the juges? I don't agree with the sentences at all, and mabye Kerimel is wrong on some aspects but I really get where he is comming from. I find sometimes in the US (I'm french) people really harsh on members of society who have payed there debt. There might be a cultural aspect to this. There probably is a fasle sens of mercy in the jugements, Kerimel probably lacked some sens of nuance and perception rather. I'm scandalised by these jugements, Kerimel I find just very clumsy, lacking "a propos".
When I hear these podcast episodes about criminal priests being rehabilitated, I can't help but think of St Paul's former life of persecuting Christians. It may in fact be God's will that former criminals lead His Church. St Paul's case, however, is different from these in at least two significant ways: 1) Saul the Pharisee wasn't already in a position of authority in the Church when he committed his crimes, whereas the scandal that these priests' abuse of authority is an aggravating circumstance; and 2) St Paul seemed to regularly and publicly confess his past sins for the remainder of his life, announcing himself as the worst of sinners.
I don't know that we can say things like the Eucharistic Congress was "worth it" if only one person was saved. While I agree a soul is worth more than all the money, if you are in charge of putting on events and spending all that money, you should have some sort of end goal in mind, some kind of "metric" you should be able to look at. It seems wasteful to just always say you can't measure the impact of the church's efforts, as we don't know how God is working in people. I feel God gave us this knowledge of how to measure impact, so we really need to not waste the limited resources our dwindling church's money has. To be sure, I can't say my efforts are ever truly successful, even based on stats, but I think if we try something, we need to see if it's worth doing again
I am not sure how useful or interesting my opinions on this episode will be, but in any case here they are:
1. Your commentary on cases such as that of Fr Capella is of course always very articulate and informative, but I also find your discussions of such cases helpful because Ed always sounds so obviously, genuinely angry and hacked off when talking about sexual abuse in the Church. Although I agree that 'images of child sexual abuse' is a more accurate and respectful term than 'child pornography', I didn't really mind Ed using it because the disgust and contempt in his voice was obvious. There is a very clear emotional connection with survivors coming across in these discussions which, for me anyway, is a great consolation, as much of a consolation of having this stuff talked about in a sensible and rational way.
2. In terms of what we do about priest offenders... can we return to Fr Gerald Fitzgerald's idea of a physically isolated, intentional community? Maybe not a Caribbean island, but something more akin to a Cenacolo specifically for offenders. (I think Cenacolo does great work, but when I visited one, I was vaguely aware in the back of my mind that if I knew the backstories of some of the gentlemen I was sharing a meal with I'd probably run a mile, and therefore the Cenacolo was doing an astonishing work of the Spirit in giving them a place where they could do penance and grow in virtue in a way that posed absolutely no problem for any at-risk or vulnerable groups.)
3. Perhaps this is a bit of a 'nunny' suggestion, but can we start canonising people who, in their earthly lives, showed heroic virtue by standing up the hierarchy and reporting sexual abuse and its cover-up even when it made them deeply unpopular, and then had the fortitude to continue practicing their faith in the face of corruption and cover-up? I think having such people offered to the universal Church as examples of sanctity and as intercessors would be immensely useful (this is the Dominican in me coming out - let's find ways of being useful for the salvation of souls!)
In my mind, the evangelical target of Eucharistic processions is someone who attends Mass more or less weekly but doesn't believe in the Real Presence. The Eucharistic Congress imo was geared more towards encouragement of those who already pretty all-in(partially because it was expensive & difficult to get to), but parish/diocese level events could easily help those who are kind of bouncing around the parish, but not sure why
‘Is Pope Leo the GOAT’ would be a great future podcast
I lived in a parish where we first did a Eucharist procession throughout the neighborhood, stopping for benediction at a number of people's homes. A few weeks later the pastor with a few parishioners, all of them Spanish speaking, went house to house through the neighborhood. I don't know how effective this was.
A nearby parish to me did this too! I attended one of the processions and it was lovely. It was moving to see men working on roofs in the neighborhood (there had been a recent hailstorm) stopping as we passed to kneel in the presence of the Eucharist.
As a victim I would much rather see a priest remain in orders so that he isn't out on the streets abusing additional children after he has completed his sentence but left in orders so he can be stuck in a monastery where there are no potential victims and where he is under constant supervision so he won't offend again.
The difficulty with covert narcissists is that if you leave them under constant supervision by a few people who are not professional guards, are they not likely to (eventually) charm those people, work on their sympathies, and convince them that "I am really a great guy and you can turn your back on me"? This is literally what these people are doing currently and it's how they end up in trusted positions. They practically can't *not* do it.
In about 20 years (I am choosing a random number within my probable lifetime) we'll have effective robotic supervision and it might be a solved problem, but I don't know whether I look forward to that specific dystopia.
Then the monks in those monasteries should be taught how to deal with the problem so they won't fall for that behaviour.
Yes. It would be useful more generally too.
I was born and raised in the Archdiocese of Washington (the people’s republic of Takoma Park!) and went to high school on North Capitol Street- not exactly cowboy material. But I married a girl whose family has been in Arizona since the 1800s. Eventually we moved out here and she took me to my first rodeo (pun intended).
It’s my new favorite sport. Hands down.
I go to three or four a year at this point. Fun to watch the events, but it’s just as much a cultural experience as it is a sporting event.
You may think the best part is the bronco or bull riding. Fun no doubt, but the thing that will instantly get you hooked is the mutton busting. Not familiar?
It’s a bunch of three year olds holding onto a sheep for dear life for anywhere from 1-5 seconds. Guaranteed, you will be on your feet screaming for little Wyatt or Oaklee (the names of the competitors are also fantastic).
Ed, you must go to one at some point. You will be instantly hooked… and then find yourself browsing cowboy boots online.
You should reach out to Fr. Nathaniel Block. Canon lawyer and judicial vicar of the Diocese of Gallup, but also pastor of Our Lady of the Snow in Snowflake-Taylor, Arizona… it’s one of the most Mormon towns in America, but it’s my favorite church in all of AZ… and it’s practically across the street from the Taylor Rodeo Grounds! Taylor Rodeo is one of the biggest in AZ.
Go to vespers and then walk across the street just in time for the rodeo!
Mutton busting is my new official favorite sport that I have never seen.
It’s amazing in person!!!
Was he “authorized” to flee the U.S. while the Vatican Secretariat of state (ahem, ahem.. someone had to at least approve his travel expenses from Washington, DC to Rome) mulled” the decision to revoke his diplomatic immunity and release him to U.S. law enforcement.. is the current- and then- US papal nuncio also *IMMUNE* from questions about US (and Canadian) law violation on HIS WATCH while U.S. Nuncio? Or is everybody just stalling until the U.S. nuncio’s upcoming retirement so he won’t have to answer any questions about his involvement? Is the papal nuncio’s *fragility* too much to ask him?
Or perhaps someone should ask the current U.S. President why he allowed a female employee of the U.S. government who committed homicide in the United Kingdom in 2019 - and who had diplomatic immunity - to flee to the United States to avoid prosecution? And why he didn't waive immunity so she could be prosecuted?
To put this in Church terms, relying on diplomatic immunity is "normal absolution", whereas a waiver of immunity is "general absolution." While the latter is allowed in theory, in practice (at least around here) it is and is meant to be very rare.
Listeners may be interested to learn that one of the chief writers of Adventures in Odyssey has since been received into the Catholic Church.
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=hzkR7FH3DM4&si=-U8HbXTRiscE4iX2
I always knew I felt a deep mysterious kinship with JD… now I know it’s because we were both Adventures in Odyssey kids. #ConnieAndEugeneBelongTogether
In relation to the music discussion at the beginning, I wonder if the same sort of dynamic is at play with certain demographics who came of age in the church while the St. Louis Jesuits were on the ascendancy… If there is a similar dynamic at play, I will have to be deliberately more charitable. Also, if the Holy Ghost can heal my various neural pathways damaged due to sin, I will pray that he will heal theirs which are damaged due to poor catechesis, theology, musical taste… My love for classic church music and hymns cut very much against the 80s/90s music which formed my neural pathways as a young person.
fwiw, I could believe this! *Intellectually* I understand the value of good music, I want us to use our best for the worship of God, I appreciate the theological depth baked into many traditional hymns... but in my heart of hearts, if I'm out walking alone at dawn, and you see that kind of shadow & rustling that could be a coyote, or is it maybe a wolf? I'm whistling from the OCP hymnal of my 00's suburban childhood parish
> certain demographics who came of age in the church while the St. Louis Jesuits were on the ascendancy
No, that's my demographic. I grew up in literal St Louis. One of the parish priests was a literal Jesuit (not the kind that plays music) and the parish music was of course psalms in vernacular that were set directly to folk guitar by amateurs during the glory days of "Peter Paul & Mary are pretty great, folk music is by folk, and therefore anyone can write it". These were objectively better than Hagan or Haas or Farrell or Joncas or whatever the next generation of the vernacular is. I will fist fight someone in a Denny's parking lot over this.
You will all think this comment is satirical but it is not :)
Also, while I am letting my strong opinions out for a run, I will ABSOLUTELY fist fight whoever updated I Am The Bread Of Life. No one can come to me unless the Father *draw* him is categorically different from unless the Father *beckon*. THIS IS IMPORTANT, PEOPLE. I will bring a posse of mystics to this rumble.
Help a convert brother understand this (a convert who still defaults to the great ‘Wesleyan Screamers’ which can be sung sober or drunk, with our without accompaniment). When I refer to ‘St. Louis Jesuits’ I think of Schutte, Foley SJ (et al). You indicate that this designation is much broader… I would definitely take Psalms set to guitar, over songs which are apparently based upon Psalms, but are actually very poor paraphrases with a range of theological biases dictating lyric choices.
But to your comment above, we sang a real doozie today called ‘Anthem’ by Joncas, which I could not in conscience sing because I struggled to know what in the world it was actually about… I’m not denying that I regularly question myself, but neither do I want to sing ‘we are question’ to everyone in the church. It seems like a song we’re supposed to sing to each other, rather than as a congregation to God…
I think of the band name, I don't know who was in it. But like any band I only remember the good tracks.
Yeah, Anthem (an example of slightly more recent garbage) was on the list that a bishop rightly tried to condemn as ... some word like heretical but maybe not that word. It was fun to play on guitar (I was in a guitar choir in grad school in the 90s) but I'd be very okay with burying it.
"I will fist fight someone in a Denny's parking lot over this."
Oh? Not Bob Evans'?
If I ask my adult child "why, in your overheard parlance, is it Denny's in particular" I will receive no useful information but maybe the internet knows.
"What does one wear to a rodeo?... linen's probably out." This may be my all time favorite Ed quote. It's certainly up there.
I agree these priest should no longer be in the clerical state... But once that's been juged its done, no? Once they have served their sentence, prononced by the legetimate authorities, well then they are deemed to have recieved their punishment. If they choose a life of penence to go further, that's one thing. If they are able to, having converted, be usefull and make fruitfull their talents in more backtage roles, then it could be a way for them to have some fullfilment in a humble and usefull way. I feel that continuing to be excessivly hasrh once they served their sentence is not justice. They need to find a way where they find some consolation especially to help them stay on the strait and narrow. Being to harsh can make their interior fight untenable, I d'ont see how that's helpfull. I think we should not be looking at the superiors who inherit that situation but to the judges that leave us unsatified with the punishment these priests have recieved and a feeling of injustice. Isn't it also the case for the victimes, looking towards the juges? How can there be justice for either if there is a underlying, infinite, unspoken punishment further than the actual sentence, that everyone has his own opinion of? Are we to apply jugements in stead on the juges? I don't agree with the sentences at all, and mabye Kerimel is wrong on some aspects but I really get where he is comming from. I find sometimes in the US (I'm french) people really harsh on members of society who have payed there debt. There might be a cultural aspect to this. There probably is a fasle sens of mercy in the jugements, Kerimel probably lacked some sens of nuance and perception rather. I'm scandalised by these jugements, Kerimel I find just very clumsy, lacking "a propos".
Ah, yes, the Good Ole Blues Brothers Boys Band from Chicago.
When I hear these podcast episodes about criminal priests being rehabilitated, I can't help but think of St Paul's former life of persecuting Christians. It may in fact be God's will that former criminals lead His Church. St Paul's case, however, is different from these in at least two significant ways: 1) Saul the Pharisee wasn't already in a position of authority in the Church when he committed his crimes, whereas the scandal that these priests' abuse of authority is an aggravating circumstance; and 2) St Paul seemed to regularly and publicly confess his past sins for the remainder of his life, announcing himself as the worst of sinners.
I don't know that we can say things like the Eucharistic Congress was "worth it" if only one person was saved. While I agree a soul is worth more than all the money, if you are in charge of putting on events and spending all that money, you should have some sort of end goal in mind, some kind of "metric" you should be able to look at. It seems wasteful to just always say you can't measure the impact of the church's efforts, as we don't know how God is working in people. I feel God gave us this knowledge of how to measure impact, so we really need to not waste the limited resources our dwindling church's money has. To be sure, I can't say my efforts are ever truly successful, even based on stats, but I think if we try something, we need to see if it's worth doing again
I am not sure how useful or interesting my opinions on this episode will be, but in any case here they are:
1. Your commentary on cases such as that of Fr Capella is of course always very articulate and informative, but I also find your discussions of such cases helpful because Ed always sounds so obviously, genuinely angry and hacked off when talking about sexual abuse in the Church. Although I agree that 'images of child sexual abuse' is a more accurate and respectful term than 'child pornography', I didn't really mind Ed using it because the disgust and contempt in his voice was obvious. There is a very clear emotional connection with survivors coming across in these discussions which, for me anyway, is a great consolation, as much of a consolation of having this stuff talked about in a sensible and rational way.
2. In terms of what we do about priest offenders... can we return to Fr Gerald Fitzgerald's idea of a physically isolated, intentional community? Maybe not a Caribbean island, but something more akin to a Cenacolo specifically for offenders. (I think Cenacolo does great work, but when I visited one, I was vaguely aware in the back of my mind that if I knew the backstories of some of the gentlemen I was sharing a meal with I'd probably run a mile, and therefore the Cenacolo was doing an astonishing work of the Spirit in giving them a place where they could do penance and grow in virtue in a way that posed absolutely no problem for any at-risk or vulnerable groups.)
3. Perhaps this is a bit of a 'nunny' suggestion, but can we start canonising people who, in their earthly lives, showed heroic virtue by standing up the hierarchy and reporting sexual abuse and its cover-up even when it made them deeply unpopular, and then had the fortitude to continue practicing their faith in the face of corruption and cover-up? I think having such people offered to the universal Church as examples of sanctity and as intercessors would be immensely useful (this is the Dominican in me coming out - let's find ways of being useful for the salvation of souls!)