Those Catholics who are considering voting for or already have voted for the AfD are usually those, who see a large part of the German episcopate as heretics who support things obviously contrary to church teaching like woman ordination or blessing for homosexual couples. Then it's obvious to ask, why you should trust the bishops regarding which party to (not) vote for, when they speak falsehood about matters of faith and moral elsewhere. This is a serious problem and probably is only going to get worse if the bishops continue on their chosen "synodal path".
Irme Stetter-Karp of the so-called Central Committee of German Catholics on the other hand is a completely different case. Fortunately nobody takes her serious outside of the cadre of professional lay Catholics, just as you will be hard-pressed finding practicing Catholics who feel themselves represented by the ZdK.
Good to hear from someone "on the ground" so to speak. There has been a lot of hysteria around this election, but little facts from articles I have read. The media seems to think they can just attach the label "far-right" to AfD and then they don't actually have to address any of their policies or ideas. It's just an ad hominem fallacy and doesn't actually tell me anything about AfD.
After that reading about the Synodal Way the last few years, I feel a knee-jerk desire to be sympathetic toward anyone Stetter-Karp criticizes. I'll definitely have to watch that... Nobody's wrong all the time, though some are wrong much more often than others.
The AfD is more anti-rape and anti-crime than the elites, who have turned their backs on the people. Stetter-Karp's children aren't getting raped, so she doesn't care. When women are getting spit on in the street for dressing like German's instead of wearing a garbage bag to cover their bodies, people react. Setter-Karp should lead by example and try to eat by herself incognito at Muslim restaurants in Muslim ghettos without a male guardian.
Can any parallels be drawn or extrapolations be made for the US, where the USCCB is ostensibly voiceless against similar populism and racism nationalism of the Christian Nationalist Right?
Sometimes there is such a thing as too much attention given to idiots and loons who would have far less ability to influence anything if they were ignored for being idiots and loons. You may have the right to say whatever you want, but no one is obligated to listen to you or take you seriously.
Germany is a very different political culture to the US. It’s a parliamentary democracy for one and it’s unusual to get a single party to capture a sufficient majority win government. It usually is coalitions of 2-3 (or sometimes more) negotiated to make a majority. The Bishops opposition to the AfD look far more likely to backfire given they are still a ‘minor’ party. It’s also a bit rich to call a successful party in a democratic election that is was well organised, and has no allegations of fraud or malfeasance a “threat to liberal democracy.”
I think part of it is that the US bishops have had to contend with the Johnson Amendment for more than 50 years and that by this point it's created an instinctive aversion to making overtly partisan pronouncements. Sure, they make none-too-subtle political statements frequently, but not wholesale condemnation of a whole party and barring members from having any role in the church. The German response is a bit similar to Altman's position toward Democrats, honestly, though less hellfire is involved.
Statements like "This party is trampling on the liberal democracy" and "they are clearly right-wing extremist state associations that aim to end democracy as we know it" are so stupid it hurts. And are why people voting for parties like the AfD. This party which has never had any elected power and is not allowed to form a government is clearly "trampling on the liberal democracy." With no power...When you people part of the government they have to start taking stands on issues dealing with the real world of ruling a state or nation. When you keep pushing them out because they are too "right-wing" It just sounds like same lame political arguments that we here in the US.
BTW Lukes reporting is good my issue is with Stetter-Karp who sounds like she could be working for Harris Campaign in the US talking about how "weird" JD Vance is.
This reminds me of a story a Deacon about in my Midwest Diocese, when Trump was elected in 2016 all the member of Chancery at the time were wearing Safety pins.
If you don't remember this very short-lived trend here is link below but much of German Catholic response to the AfD feeling like Leftist US catholic wearing a safety pins because the orange man is bad you know.
I'm inclined to regard the statements of representatives of the German Church as having the same credibility as progressives of the United States: modicums of truth, carefully selected, then twisted and amplified out of proportion to create a narrative that slanders their opponents. People will continue to listen to them because they sound so nice and caring, though. C. S. Lewis had some good warnings about the risks of NICE, though.
What's been taking place in Germany is what's been taking place in the United States: an attempted populist uprising, left and right, against the elite classes who have failed for decades to govern the common good of the countries in their care, pursuing instead impossible dreams of The End of History. The German Church, for its part, is utterly corrupt and a toady of the progressive globalists who've wrecked their country. Their behavior towards the wider Catholic Church is sufficient evidence of this.
I don't know much about Germany. Can anyone inform me which parties support the forceful taking of innocent human life? And have the German bishops come out an informed Catholics that supporting them is inconsistent with the Catholic faith?
Having visited Germany many times, I am not surprised that people are nervous about "extremism". Back in the day, your beloved Granddad might have been doing his patriotic bit for the Third Reich. And your favourite uncle might have been up in a watchtower ready to shoot anyone trying to cross to West Germany. And there were up to 90,000 ordinary people in the Stasi recording stuff on their neighbours. Nothing seemed "extreme" about any of it at the time.
Now it is normal for Catholic bishops to abandon Catholic teaching and denounce anyone who might object to unlimited immigration. Have their Graces or their senior lay cooperators explained how a country can have open borders and a welfare state?
I was fascinated to see the tiny Sorbian minority being mentioned. Numerically they are insignificant, but they are an integral part of German history, despite brutal past persecutions. I can recommend a visit to Cottbus or Bautzen. Both have Sorbian museums and street names displayed in German and Sorbian.
Bautzen also has a Way of St James traced with shell symbols across its public street maps. These shells of St James also appear on some headstones in the cemetery. It's a very long way to footslog to Santiago from here. And it has a shared Lutheran/Catholic cathedral. A town that has long practical experience of peaceful cooperation between different communities. But there are plain, carefully negotiated limits.
I really would have appreciated you trying to explain exactly why the bishops labeled the AfD as they did, and the perspective of the AfD on that labeling, and whether it fits. Because as we all know, the German bishops are not exactly bastions of Catholic orthodoxy. Leaving those assertions there unqualified is giving me more questions than answers. Is it truly "racial-nationalism" to say "Hey, Germans have lived here for thousands of years, let's maybe not overrun their only homeland with strangers from other countries who are routinely aggressive toward native Germans and don't want to assimilate"? How is it that to "protect democracy" (democracy, remember, is where everyone gets a vote and a voice) the German government and German bishops want to silence all dissenting voices to their programs? That seems to me to be doublespeak. Very telling that they don't care for the BSW either.
People should read the Catechism or USCCB statements on immigration. This "unlimited migration" position is NOT Church teaching and is an unthinkable crime against native peoples of these counties.
I don't live there, but I do know that (for obvious reasons) Germans are much more wary of anything "right wing" than even the rest of Europe, where political parties are left, more left, or very left. It's easy to make Germans nervous by calling something you don't agree with "right wing." This bit really got me:
'The AfD’s current program says that Germany’s border “must be closed immediately to put an immediate end to the unregulated mass immigration of mainly professionally unqualified people into our country and its social systems.”
'It seeks to prevent what it calls “the further spread of segregated Islamic parallel societies” within Germany.'
'It also promises its policies will make Germany “more family- and child-friendly,” and says it rejects “all efforts to declare the killing of unborn children a human right.”
'As the AfD’s popularity grew, German bishops and lay leaders intensified their criticism of the party, arguing that its platform was incompatible with Christianity. '
What about any of that is incompatible with Christianity? Catholics fought wars for centuries to keep Islamic invaders and "segregated Islamic parallel societies" out, so it can't be that. So... stopping unfettered immigration to deal with masses of people aren't integrating, including violent criminals? Ending abortion? Promoting families? If not any of that, then what are they not mentioning that is incompatible with Christianity?
Perhaps it would not fit in this piece, but I'm wondering if the German bishops were at all specific about which elements of the AfD platform were objectionable. If so, it probably wouldn't fit in the space we have here. However, if they aren't specific then they themselves are manifesting partisanship.
We typically appreciate when the Church sorts conglomerate issues into their constituent questions. Did the German bishops offer any guidance, any sorting, any discernment that would uncover any valid concerns of the AfD?
I hope I'm wrong to guess that they haven't done anything of the sort.
The current left wing ruling coalition in Germany supports the status quo of legalized abortions and prohibitions on home schooling or other parental authority over the education of their children. The current ruling party SPD is also proposing censorship zones and limitations on the right of "offensive speech," which would threaten Christian opposition to modern decadence. The Catholic leaders in Germany have not denounced the ruling parties for these stances, which the AfD would oppose. These so-called leaders seem more interested in preserving the status quo, and their precious funding from the church tax, than authentic Catholic values.
The AfD rejects “all efforts to declare the killing of unborn children a human right.” German bishops and lay leaders intensified their criticism of the party, arguing that its platform was incompatible with Christianity". Wow , human life is incompatible with Christianity. The AfD is trampling with liberal Democracy..... Wow. I have customers in Germany and GB. I hear all their complaints about their illegals'. After a while., the working middle class anywhere on earth can only put up with enough nonsense. Enough is enough.! The working middle class is stuck paying the bills for these illegals. I will speak from the USA perspective.... My grandparents and great grandparents came to the USA. They worked. The helped build churches. They tried the best that they could to speak and write in English. They wanted to assimilate. They loved the USA... They wanted to be citizens of the USA..... They did not ask for the government of the USA for money. They came here for a better future. The illegals are sadly very different. They do not want to be citizens of the USA. They do not want to learn English or assimilate. They get free access to health clinics and hospitals. They get food stamps. They get free Education - which they want in Spanish. They do not want to learn USA history.... They do not plan to stay in the USA long term. The local democrat politicians and the Catholic church officials strut around like peacocks. They are liberals. Liberals like using other people money to make themselves feel good. . The local USA born working middle class has had enough of paying for these people. The only service that we get from the locally democratic run government is the bill. The local Catholic church is hoping that these illegals will come to church. Remember how my immigrant forefathers help build churches? Well the local Catholic church is giving them churches where I live. How do I know this? The church that I attended for over 20 years and loved being a member of, will be 100% Spanish in the future... We got a USA born, anti American liberal priest who pushed out the Americans. I stayed until, they did not have a mass in English on holy obligation days... When I turned in my notice that I was leaving and I told them why. I was told that they knew that people would leave. They did not care. Some of the other parishioners have gone to other Catholic Churches. But a lot of have left the Catholic church. In the end this all comes down to money and filling the pews. So you let babies be aborted, children mutilated to make sure that those new members that you hope will stay are treated better than the folks that built those Catholic churches The joke will be on the local Catholic Church as all the illegals make their money and return to where they came from....
The same geographical group of bishops that raised the right hand to Hitler now raise their voices for the EU and Davos. When they do get around to Church stuff, it’s to spew heresy. Disgusting.
Your accusation against nazi-era bishops is very dubious. “Hitler’s Pope” has been long since debunked. The Church was a constant worry for the Nazis and Hitler kept triangulating and working to divide German Catholics.
That book is trash. That being said, there is more than enough documentary and photographic evidence of Bishops going along. The Catholic Resistance was lay led.
I don’t find it unreasonable for Catholic public figures to be unnerved by and opposed to the AfD’s rise. There are obviously people in that party who should be kept far from power.
More basically, however, I think there is a dilemma associated with attitudes toward immigration. I think observation leads to the conclusion that there is significant electoral demand across the developed West for immigration restrictionist policies, and if the “established” parties are not seen as effective or credible on this issue, new parties will almost certainly arise to champion it.
In many ways, the “best” solution to this problem is to have established center-right parties that are seen as credible on the issue (though when credibility is lost, it is not always simple to regain it). So, to be simplistic, one solution to the rise of the AfD is that the CDU “learns” and tacks back toward immigration restrictionism and toward the right on other issues. I seriously doubt the resulting set of positions would be particularly “right wing” by historical standards (compared to the CDU of the postwar boom years, for instance)—in other words, there is an argument that such a shift ought to be considered totally legitimate.
But would Catholic public figures such as the ones quoted here actually view this as a positive development? I think this is worth mulling over, because the underlying issues and voter dynamics around migration are very unlikely to go away in the near or medium terms.
Perspective from a German:
Those Catholics who are considering voting for or already have voted for the AfD are usually those, who see a large part of the German episcopate as heretics who support things obviously contrary to church teaching like woman ordination or blessing for homosexual couples. Then it's obvious to ask, why you should trust the bishops regarding which party to (not) vote for, when they speak falsehood about matters of faith and moral elsewhere. This is a serious problem and probably is only going to get worse if the bishops continue on their chosen "synodal path".
Irme Stetter-Karp of the so-called Central Committee of German Catholics on the other hand is a completely different case. Fortunately nobody takes her serious outside of the cadre of professional lay Catholics, just as you will be hard-pressed finding practicing Catholics who feel themselves represented by the ZdK.
It's almost as if you think those who don't see clearly for objective moral issues, probably don't see clearly for prudential ones either.
Good to hear from someone "on the ground" so to speak. There has been a lot of hysteria around this election, but little facts from articles I have read. The media seems to think they can just attach the label "far-right" to AfD and then they don't actually have to address any of their policies or ideas. It's just an ad hominem fallacy and doesn't actually tell me anything about AfD.
After that reading about the Synodal Way the last few years, I feel a knee-jerk desire to be sympathetic toward anyone Stetter-Karp criticizes. I'll definitely have to watch that... Nobody's wrong all the time, though some are wrong much more often than others.
The AfD is more anti-rape and anti-crime than the elites, who have turned their backs on the people. Stetter-Karp's children aren't getting raped, so she doesn't care. When women are getting spit on in the street for dressing like German's instead of wearing a garbage bag to cover their bodies, people react. Setter-Karp should lead by example and try to eat by herself incognito at Muslim restaurants in Muslim ghettos without a male guardian.
X is full of videos like this
https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1830754927708164371
What do Bishops Oster, Hanke, and Voderholzer say about the AfD? Their statements I would take seriously.
Can any parallels be drawn or extrapolations be made for the US, where the USCCB is ostensibly voiceless against similar populism and racism nationalism of the Christian Nationalist Right?
Sometimes there is such a thing as too much attention given to idiots and loons who would have far less ability to influence anything if they were ignored for being idiots and loons. You may have the right to say whatever you want, but no one is obligated to listen to you or take you seriously.
Germany is a very different political culture to the US. It’s a parliamentary democracy for one and it’s unusual to get a single party to capture a sufficient majority win government. It usually is coalitions of 2-3 (or sometimes more) negotiated to make a majority. The Bishops opposition to the AfD look far more likely to backfire given they are still a ‘minor’ party. It’s also a bit rich to call a successful party in a democratic election that is was well organised, and has no allegations of fraud or malfeasance a “threat to liberal democracy.”
I think part of it is that the US bishops have had to contend with the Johnson Amendment for more than 50 years and that by this point it's created an instinctive aversion to making overtly partisan pronouncements. Sure, they make none-too-subtle political statements frequently, but not wholesale condemnation of a whole party and barring members from having any role in the church. The German response is a bit similar to Altman's position toward Democrats, honestly, though less hellfire is involved.
Statements like "This party is trampling on the liberal democracy" and "they are clearly right-wing extremist state associations that aim to end democracy as we know it" are so stupid it hurts. And are why people voting for parties like the AfD. This party which has never had any elected power and is not allowed to form a government is clearly "trampling on the liberal democracy." With no power...When you people part of the government they have to start taking stands on issues dealing with the real world of ruling a state or nation. When you keep pushing them out because they are too "right-wing" It just sounds like same lame political arguments that we here in the US.
BTW Lukes reporting is good my issue is with Stetter-Karp who sounds like she could be working for Harris Campaign in the US talking about how "weird" JD Vance is.
This reminds me of a story a Deacon about in my Midwest Diocese, when Trump was elected in 2016 all the member of Chancery at the time were wearing Safety pins.
If you don't remember this very short-lived trend here is link below but much of German Catholic response to the AfD feeling like Leftist US catholic wearing a safety pins because the orange man is bad you know.
https://www.vox.com/culture/2016/11/17/13636156/safety-pins-backlash-trump-brexit
I'm inclined to regard the statements of representatives of the German Church as having the same credibility as progressives of the United States: modicums of truth, carefully selected, then twisted and amplified out of proportion to create a narrative that slanders their opponents. People will continue to listen to them because they sound so nice and caring, though. C. S. Lewis had some good warnings about the risks of NICE, though.
Here's another perspective of what's going on: https://unherd.com/newsroom/the-afd-has-destroyed-germanys-political-mainstream/
The author of that article also wrote this about Sarah Wagenknecht's rebellion against the New Left establishment of Germany: https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-curse-of-lifestyle-leftism/
What's been taking place in Germany is what's been taking place in the United States: an attempted populist uprising, left and right, against the elite classes who have failed for decades to govern the common good of the countries in their care, pursuing instead impossible dreams of The End of History. The German Church, for its part, is utterly corrupt and a toady of the progressive globalists who've wrecked their country. Their behavior towards the wider Catholic Church is sufficient evidence of this.
"May sinners vanish from the earth,
and the wicked be no more.
Bless the Lord, my soul! Hallelujah!" (Ps 104:35)
I don't know much about Germany. Can anyone inform me which parties support the forceful taking of innocent human life? And have the German bishops come out an informed Catholics that supporting them is inconsistent with the Catholic faith?
Having visited Germany many times, I am not surprised that people are nervous about "extremism". Back in the day, your beloved Granddad might have been doing his patriotic bit for the Third Reich. And your favourite uncle might have been up in a watchtower ready to shoot anyone trying to cross to West Germany. And there were up to 90,000 ordinary people in the Stasi recording stuff on their neighbours. Nothing seemed "extreme" about any of it at the time.
Now it is normal for Catholic bishops to abandon Catholic teaching and denounce anyone who might object to unlimited immigration. Have their Graces or their senior lay cooperators explained how a country can have open borders and a welfare state?
I was fascinated to see the tiny Sorbian minority being mentioned. Numerically they are insignificant, but they are an integral part of German history, despite brutal past persecutions. I can recommend a visit to Cottbus or Bautzen. Both have Sorbian museums and street names displayed in German and Sorbian.
Bautzen also has a Way of St James traced with shell symbols across its public street maps. These shells of St James also appear on some headstones in the cemetery. It's a very long way to footslog to Santiago from here. And it has a shared Lutheran/Catholic cathedral. A town that has long practical experience of peaceful cooperation between different communities. But there are plain, carefully negotiated limits.
https://sorbisches-museum.de/museum/?lang=en
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_St_Peter,_Bautzen
I really would have appreciated you trying to explain exactly why the bishops labeled the AfD as they did, and the perspective of the AfD on that labeling, and whether it fits. Because as we all know, the German bishops are not exactly bastions of Catholic orthodoxy. Leaving those assertions there unqualified is giving me more questions than answers. Is it truly "racial-nationalism" to say "Hey, Germans have lived here for thousands of years, let's maybe not overrun their only homeland with strangers from other countries who are routinely aggressive toward native Germans and don't want to assimilate"? How is it that to "protect democracy" (democracy, remember, is where everyone gets a vote and a voice) the German government and German bishops want to silence all dissenting voices to their programs? That seems to me to be doublespeak. Very telling that they don't care for the BSW either.
People should read the Catechism or USCCB statements on immigration. This "unlimited migration" position is NOT Church teaching and is an unthinkable crime against native peoples of these counties.
Oh no, not Our Democracy! Help us, Ms. Stetter-Karp!
I don't live there, but I do know that (for obvious reasons) Germans are much more wary of anything "right wing" than even the rest of Europe, where political parties are left, more left, or very left. It's easy to make Germans nervous by calling something you don't agree with "right wing." This bit really got me:
'The AfD’s current program says that Germany’s border “must be closed immediately to put an immediate end to the unregulated mass immigration of mainly professionally unqualified people into our country and its social systems.”
'It seeks to prevent what it calls “the further spread of segregated Islamic parallel societies” within Germany.'
'It also promises its policies will make Germany “more family- and child-friendly,” and says it rejects “all efforts to declare the killing of unborn children a human right.”
'As the AfD’s popularity grew, German bishops and lay leaders intensified their criticism of the party, arguing that its platform was incompatible with Christianity. '
What about any of that is incompatible with Christianity? Catholics fought wars for centuries to keep Islamic invaders and "segregated Islamic parallel societies" out, so it can't be that. So... stopping unfettered immigration to deal with masses of people aren't integrating, including violent criminals? Ending abortion? Promoting families? If not any of that, then what are they not mentioning that is incompatible with Christianity?
Perhaps it would not fit in this piece, but I'm wondering if the German bishops were at all specific about which elements of the AfD platform were objectionable. If so, it probably wouldn't fit in the space we have here. However, if they aren't specific then they themselves are manifesting partisanship.
We typically appreciate when the Church sorts conglomerate issues into their constituent questions. Did the German bishops offer any guidance, any sorting, any discernment that would uncover any valid concerns of the AfD?
I hope I'm wrong to guess that they haven't done anything of the sort.
The current left wing ruling coalition in Germany supports the status quo of legalized abortions and prohibitions on home schooling or other parental authority over the education of their children. The current ruling party SPD is also proposing censorship zones and limitations on the right of "offensive speech," which would threaten Christian opposition to modern decadence. The Catholic leaders in Germany have not denounced the ruling parties for these stances, which the AfD would oppose. These so-called leaders seem more interested in preserving the status quo, and their precious funding from the church tax, than authentic Catholic values.
The AfD rejects “all efforts to declare the killing of unborn children a human right.” German bishops and lay leaders intensified their criticism of the party, arguing that its platform was incompatible with Christianity". Wow , human life is incompatible with Christianity. The AfD is trampling with liberal Democracy..... Wow. I have customers in Germany and GB. I hear all their complaints about their illegals'. After a while., the working middle class anywhere on earth can only put up with enough nonsense. Enough is enough.! The working middle class is stuck paying the bills for these illegals. I will speak from the USA perspective.... My grandparents and great grandparents came to the USA. They worked. The helped build churches. They tried the best that they could to speak and write in English. They wanted to assimilate. They loved the USA... They wanted to be citizens of the USA..... They did not ask for the government of the USA for money. They came here for a better future. The illegals are sadly very different. They do not want to be citizens of the USA. They do not want to learn English or assimilate. They get free access to health clinics and hospitals. They get food stamps. They get free Education - which they want in Spanish. They do not want to learn USA history.... They do not plan to stay in the USA long term. The local democrat politicians and the Catholic church officials strut around like peacocks. They are liberals. Liberals like using other people money to make themselves feel good. . The local USA born working middle class has had enough of paying for these people. The only service that we get from the locally democratic run government is the bill. The local Catholic church is hoping that these illegals will come to church. Remember how my immigrant forefathers help build churches? Well the local Catholic church is giving them churches where I live. How do I know this? The church that I attended for over 20 years and loved being a member of, will be 100% Spanish in the future... We got a USA born, anti American liberal priest who pushed out the Americans. I stayed until, they did not have a mass in English on holy obligation days... When I turned in my notice that I was leaving and I told them why. I was told that they knew that people would leave. They did not care. Some of the other parishioners have gone to other Catholic Churches. But a lot of have left the Catholic church. In the end this all comes down to money and filling the pews. So you let babies be aborted, children mutilated to make sure that those new members that you hope will stay are treated better than the folks that built those Catholic churches The joke will be on the local Catholic Church as all the illegals make their money and return to where they came from....
The same geographical group of bishops that raised the right hand to Hitler now raise their voices for the EU and Davos. When they do get around to Church stuff, it’s to spew heresy. Disgusting.
Your accusation against nazi-era bishops is very dubious. “Hitler’s Pope” has been long since debunked. The Church was a constant worry for the Nazis and Hitler kept triangulating and working to divide German Catholics.
That book is trash. That being said, there is more than enough documentary and photographic evidence of Bishops going along. The Catholic Resistance was lay led.
Mostly led by the Catholic trade unions.
I don’t find it unreasonable for Catholic public figures to be unnerved by and opposed to the AfD’s rise. There are obviously people in that party who should be kept far from power.
More basically, however, I think there is a dilemma associated with attitudes toward immigration. I think observation leads to the conclusion that there is significant electoral demand across the developed West for immigration restrictionist policies, and if the “established” parties are not seen as effective or credible on this issue, new parties will almost certainly arise to champion it.
In many ways, the “best” solution to this problem is to have established center-right parties that are seen as credible on the issue (though when credibility is lost, it is not always simple to regain it). So, to be simplistic, one solution to the rise of the AfD is that the CDU “learns” and tacks back toward immigration restrictionism and toward the right on other issues. I seriously doubt the resulting set of positions would be particularly “right wing” by historical standards (compared to the CDU of the postwar boom years, for instance)—in other words, there is an argument that such a shift ought to be considered totally legitimate.
But would Catholic public figures such as the ones quoted here actually view this as a positive development? I think this is worth mulling over, because the underlying issues and voter dynamics around migration are very unlikely to go away in the near or medium terms.