What else could Francis do? Declaring the German bishops in schism is a HUGE mess and it won’t make them change their ways. (See the orthodox schism, the Protestant reformation) They’ll double down and now the Concordats with every German region are under question, and the revenue from the German Church tax, which (as much as I think it is the root of all of the German Church’s worst excesses) still funds a significant portion of essential stuff going in poorer parts of the world. It’s one of the greatest global wealth redistributive mechanisms. The Germans have the Holy See over a barrel and the Pope knows it. There’s a reason he has a devotion to Our Lady Undoer of knots.
Yes! This is what I have been saying. If he started removing a few of those bishops that are pushing for this, you could expect the rest to fall in line.
I would argue the ineptitude has much deeper roots than Francis papacy. There’s a reason Benedict resigned. God rest his soul. This fight he would have seen coming miles away and he couldn’t stop it.
Sure, but in this case it actually is almost entirely his fault lol. The Germans weren't more orthodox during Bendict and JPII's days, but they weren't doing crap like this either.
Francis could have stopped everything dead in its tracks had he simply laid out the precise limits of synodality, what it can and cannot affect, and that doctrine cannot change not because a national synod can't do it, but because even the Pope can't change doctrine.
But he didn't do that, instead he argued the German Synodal Way used the wrong cover sheet in their TPS report and gave them a copy of the memo.
process arguments are going to win the day with nobody. "You can't do this because only a national council called by Rome or the synod called by Rome could do it" when what they really mean is we don't want you to do this because it sets limits for the upcoming synod we don't want...
The Germans saw that and said "yup, we've got nothing to fear from him"
Because he can't without undermining his own power at this point.
The real story is how little Romes intervention mattered, and how the Synodal Way escalated further, no longer even caring what Francis does or doesn't say
The Pope's role and what Francis' role are probably going to be two different things, because I'm not terribly optimistic in that even if Francis played a good hand perfectly from here on out it would make much difference.
And I also think a future Pope is going to have to make substantial concessions for the sake of unity that will be a pill to swallow because of Francis' ineptitude. Not ones that I'd like, but ones that will have to be realized. (There will likely be a permanent synodal committee, even if its mandate is restrained for example.)
But right now the Pope should probably figure out what he actually wants from synodality, and provide guidelines and limits to discernment, that everyone is bound by, not just the Germans.
I'm admittely a minority opinion among trads (though far less now than when I really began beating the drum in 2015) that I still think he's a doctrinally orthodox man who is way out of his depth and being introduced into a world that involves very difficult parsing he just can't handle. He's not dumber than previous popes, but there were far more limits in place in those days, institutionally and culturally. Limits we should appreciate more.
But as for today, he isn't a Machiavellian genius. He absolutely is Machiavellian, and considers himself the consumate politician playing politics on the highest stage possible. Yet the actual historical truth of Machiavelli in power is he was a disaster, not just for himself but for the cause of Italian unification he championed. He was so terrible at managing the small things it made the big things harder, and many of the things that made him a fascinating individual made him a terrible ruler.
And I think Francis knows that, hence why his critics live rent-free in his head, and he conceives of himself as the only thing standing in between a full blown coutner-revolution that will happen one he dies because nobody else is strong enough to prevent it. When the blunt reality is if he just was a boring and competent administrator and dispenser of justice on abusers, trads like myself would be nothing.
The German Synodal Way, if the resolution on voting is put into practice, will cause the Church in Germany to become schismatic. Then when the false teaching and practice begins it will also be heretical.
Other national Churches will follow Germany.
All the triumphantalist claims and hubris exhibited by the Vatican as a sign of the power of the papacy for centuries will be proven wrong.
Yes, we can bemoan that fact but what is going to happen as our Church is picked apart, little by little, over time?
The mess just keeps getting worse.
The German Synodal Way, if the resolution on voting is put into practice, will cause the Church in Germany to become schismatic. Then when the false teaching and practice begins it will also be heretical.
Other national Churches will follow Germany.
All the triumphantalist claims and hubris exhibited by the Vatican for centuries will be proven wrong.
You mean the Parliament/Assembly/Congress/Senate/Committee/Tribunal/Party/Synod has granted itself absolute governing power? Wow, who saw that coming? That definitely has no precendent whatsoever in all of history....
At this point I'm just wondering when this is going to treat the abuse crisis in Germany, which was the intended aim of this whole enterprise.
Whenever a news story comes out about the Pope paving the way for gay marriage or female priests, it's interesting to see the comments on left- and far-left leaning sites like Reddit and Imgur. Overwhelmingly, there is no applause. No joy. They sneer, because they see it as just another publicity stunt to distract from the child sex abuse crisis. They cite it as proof that all the rules are made up, that the Church is just another human organization that doesn't believe in it's own teachings but changes them to support its greed, that all this "change" is just desperate grasping at straws in reaction to loosing money as people leave the church.
They're leaving the sheepfold and the 99 in search of the one lost sheep, but only because there are wolves preying on the 99 and they simply don't want to deal with it.
But it’s not about the sexual abuse crisis. It’s about the sexual abuse opportunity for pushing for these reforms because that’s what the reformers also know as the novus professional Catholic aristocracy, desperately want because they’re professionals and KNOW how to run things. If only those pesky bishops would get out of their way…
Do they not realize that doctrinal pronouncements made outside of the authority of the Vicar of Christ or a valid ecumenical council are worthless and amount to no more than committee decrees with no binding authority on any individual? So they can bless whatever they want, but the blessing is an empty sign that conveys nothing. A show church to deceive the world. God help us.
Francis impresses me as a man who won't excommunicate anyone becuse it would be a sign of a lack of mercy towards that person, although sometimes it might bring one back to one's senses and save that person from hell. Given that, he is patiently reminding them they can't do what they're doing. I certainly hope they eventually decide to rejoin the Church and her teachings, although I suspect it will take a German disaster for that to happen.
At this point I just want to see how far this thing can go off the rails. This papacy and the synod/synodal way are a joke. This farce is happening so I might as well laugh at it. And pray hard that God will give us a Pope with the guts to fix this at the next conclave.
"Die Tagespost has reported that four dioceses — Munich and Freising, Limburg, Münster, and Würzburg — have agreed to establish a foundation to underwrite the initiative."
My family came from the Diocese of Münster in the 19th century, and on behalf of my ancestral diocese, I am ashamed. Blessed Bishop Clemens August von Galen, pray for your diocese and us.
The wrath of God is (as I understand it) to let people have what they think they want.
That is how my children (particularly the stubborn one) sometimes experience the Wrath of Dad.
What else could Francis do? Declaring the German bishops in schism is a HUGE mess and it won’t make them change their ways. (See the orthodox schism, the Protestant reformation) They’ll double down and now the Concordats with every German region are under question, and the revenue from the German Church tax, which (as much as I think it is the root of all of the German Church’s worst excesses) still funds a significant portion of essential stuff going in poorer parts of the world. It’s one of the greatest global wealth redistributive mechanisms. The Germans have the Holy See over a barrel and the Pope knows it. There’s a reason he has a devotion to Our Lady Undoer of knots.
Yes! This is what I have been saying. If he started removing a few of those bishops that are pushing for this, you could expect the rest to fall in line.
All true but the main reason there are knots is because of his ineptitude
I would argue the ineptitude has much deeper roots than Francis papacy. There’s a reason Benedict resigned. God rest his soul. This fight he would have seen coming miles away and he couldn’t stop it.
Sure, but in this case it actually is almost entirely his fault lol. The Germans weren't more orthodox during Bendict and JPII's days, but they weren't doing crap like this either.
Francis could have stopped everything dead in its tracks had he simply laid out the precise limits of synodality, what it can and cannot affect, and that doctrine cannot change not because a national synod can't do it, but because even the Pope can't change doctrine.
But he didn't do that, instead he argued the German Synodal Way used the wrong cover sheet in their TPS report and gave them a copy of the memo.
He told them they couldn't do certain things and they did them anyway.
process arguments are going to win the day with nobody. "You can't do this because only a national council called by Rome or the synod called by Rome could do it" when what they really mean is we don't want you to do this because it sets limits for the upcoming synod we don't want...
The Germans saw that and said "yup, we've got nothing to fear from him"
Because he can't without undermining his own power at this point.
The real story is how little Romes intervention mattered, and how the Synodal Way escalated further, no longer even caring what Francis does or doesn't say
The Pope's role and what Francis' role are probably going to be two different things, because I'm not terribly optimistic in that even if Francis played a good hand perfectly from here on out it would make much difference.
And I also think a future Pope is going to have to make substantial concessions for the sake of unity that will be a pill to swallow because of Francis' ineptitude. Not ones that I'd like, but ones that will have to be realized. (There will likely be a permanent synodal committee, even if its mandate is restrained for example.)
But right now the Pope should probably figure out what he actually wants from synodality, and provide guidelines and limits to discernment, that everyone is bound by, not just the Germans.
I'm admittely a minority opinion among trads (though far less now than when I really began beating the drum in 2015) that I still think he's a doctrinally orthodox man who is way out of his depth and being introduced into a world that involves very difficult parsing he just can't handle. He's not dumber than previous popes, but there were far more limits in place in those days, institutionally and culturally. Limits we should appreciate more.
But as for today, he isn't a Machiavellian genius. He absolutely is Machiavellian, and considers himself the consumate politician playing politics on the highest stage possible. Yet the actual historical truth of Machiavelli in power is he was a disaster, not just for himself but for the cause of Italian unification he championed. He was so terrible at managing the small things it made the big things harder, and many of the things that made him a fascinating individual made him a terrible ruler.
And I think Francis knows that, hence why his critics live rent-free in his head, and he conceives of himself as the only thing standing in between a full blown coutner-revolution that will happen one he dies because nobody else is strong enough to prevent it. When the blunt reality is if he just was a boring and competent administrator and dispenser of justice on abusers, trads like myself would be nothing.
That's a very interesting theory and could very well be the correct one.
The mess just keeps getting worse.
The German Synodal Way, if the resolution on voting is put into practice, will cause the Church in Germany to become schismatic. Then when the false teaching and practice begins it will also be heretical.
Other national Churches will follow Germany.
All the triumphantalist claims and hubris exhibited by the Vatican as a sign of the power of the papacy for centuries will be proven wrong.
Yes, we can bemoan that fact but what is going to happen as our Church is picked apart, little by little, over time?
The mess just keeps getting worse.
The German Synodal Way, if the resolution on voting is put into practice, will cause the Church in Germany to become schismatic. Then when the false teaching and practice begins it will also be heretical.
Other national Churches will follow Germany.
All the triumphantalist claims and hubris exhibited by the Vatican for centuries will be proven wrong.
You mean the Parliament/Assembly/Congress/Senate/Committee/Tribunal/Party/Synod has granted itself absolute governing power? Wow, who saw that coming? That definitely has no precendent whatsoever in all of history....
At this point I'm just wondering when this is going to treat the abuse crisis in Germany, which was the intended aim of this whole enterprise.
Whenever a news story comes out about the Pope paving the way for gay marriage or female priests, it's interesting to see the comments on left- and far-left leaning sites like Reddit and Imgur. Overwhelmingly, there is no applause. No joy. They sneer, because they see it as just another publicity stunt to distract from the child sex abuse crisis. They cite it as proof that all the rules are made up, that the Church is just another human organization that doesn't believe in it's own teachings but changes them to support its greed, that all this "change" is just desperate grasping at straws in reaction to loosing money as people leave the church.
They're leaving the sheepfold and the 99 in search of the one lost sheep, but only because there are wolves preying on the 99 and they simply don't want to deal with it.
But it’s not about the sexual abuse crisis. It’s about the sexual abuse opportunity for pushing for these reforms because that’s what the reformers also know as the novus professional Catholic aristocracy, desperately want because they’re professionals and KNOW how to run things. If only those pesky bishops would get out of their way…
Are you expecting anything else from Reddit? They would always say that no matter what the issue is.
Who are the lay participants at these synods, and how do they earn the right to be voting members on such hugely important issues?
Do they not realize that doctrinal pronouncements made outside of the authority of the Vicar of Christ or a valid ecumenical council are worthless and amount to no more than committee decrees with no binding authority on any individual? So they can bless whatever they want, but the blessing is an empty sign that conveys nothing. A show church to deceive the world. God help us.
Francis impresses me as a man who won't excommunicate anyone becuse it would be a sign of a lack of mercy towards that person, although sometimes it might bring one back to one's senses and save that person from hell. Given that, he is patiently reminding them they can't do what they're doing. I certainly hope they eventually decide to rejoin the Church and her teachings, although I suspect it will take a German disaster for that to happen.
At this point I just want to see how far this thing can go off the rails. This papacy and the synod/synodal way are a joke. This farce is happening so I might as well laugh at it. And pray hard that God will give us a Pope with the guts to fix this at the next conclave.
Hard to laugh at it when a) so many in power seem to take it seriously and b) it threatens to end up splitting the Church apart.
"Die Tagespost has reported that four dioceses — Munich and Freising, Limburg, Münster, and Würzburg — have agreed to establish a foundation to underwrite the initiative."
My family came from the Diocese of Münster in the 19th century, and on behalf of my ancestral diocese, I am ashamed. Blessed Bishop Clemens August von Galen, pray for your diocese and us.
Can't Ed get a sit down, multi-hour interview with the head of the Zdk??
The empty cross in the photo says it all.
Seems to me Pope Francis ought to be thinking more about Germany than about Tyler, Texas.