It was an idiotic deal predicated on the good faith of the Chinese Communists who are, by their very nature, hostile toward religion. Now they’ve made their situation worse because their bishops are, at best, beholden to two masters. Moreover, they’ve encouraged the faithful to join the above-ground Church and can’t plausibly tell them to go back underground. (And, of course, the Church has now made itself beholden to, if not complicit with, China, and therefore cannot speak out against China’s human rights abuses and *gasp* destructive environmental policies. I wonder what the Francis/Parolin line would be if China launched an attack on Taiwan tomorrow?)
This pontificate has continually engaged with the world on the world’s terms with utterly predictable results. It’s a tragic farce.
Shame on Francis and Parolin for persevering with this ridiculous deal when everyone knew what would happen. Cardinal Zen was right and Francis was wrong. And this is far from the only thing, everything Francis touches turns to ash. Everything that was entrusted to him, he has lost. Everything he he hold in trust, he has broken.
The deal was partially negotiated by McCarrick And remains secret. Is there any reason to doubt that a significant yearly sum of money comes to the Vatican which runs a yearly deficit?
To me that is why the deal remains and China does what I wills. It is unbelievable under any reason. It is like having Biden be able to veto and pick and move Bishops.
It's certainly not the first time the Church has misjudged a political situation, whether by sending Cola di Rienzo back to run the Papal States during the Avignon Papacy or signing a concordat with Hitler, who consistently broke it. So there is no sense complaining about popes getting into bad agreements with civil authorities; they expect honesty from those they deal with and are often mistaken
So the concordat with Hitler wasn’t actually a terrible idea. Like, I get it. He’s Hitler. But by having a document signed by him stating he would do X, it gives them legal ground to complain when he didn’t do X. And they only had like 6 years of his rule to go on. So there could be hope cooler heads might prevail (narrator: cooler heads did not, in fact prevail).
The CCP has been in power since the 50s. Their actions are completely predictable in this regard. So I’m not sure it’s a fair comparison.
There's no sense in complaining about something because it's happened before? How does that work? If my son leaves the toilet seat up for the 10th time in one day should I not say anything because it's happened before?
"Beijing’s position is entirely clear: that it can and will continue to make unilateral episcopal appointments, regardless of the plain text of the deal..."
What, we didn't see this coming? There is a reason for the underground Church in China, and the reason is that the CPCA is not and never was Catholic. It is and always has been Chinese Communist. To believe anything else is a sad misapprehension of the truth. Catholics in the West who visit China do not see the Underground Church; we are not privy to the disparity, we do not have access to that protected part of our religion for fear of discovery of these small groups of the faithful, now pressed even further into the shadows by Francis's actions to legitimize the CPCA's version. The old Catholics of the underground church, and their children, know full well there will never be a free exercise of religion under the CCP.
This example might throw a little light on the problem. We Catholics have a way of viewing ecumenism as a way of converting non-Catholics to the Faith. Non-Catholics tend to see ecumenism as a way of finding common ground through cooperative study of their common, and importantly, divergent beliefs. In a similar way, I think Rome hopes to find a common meeting ground where it and the CCP can achieve "peaceful co-existence."
That will never happen.
The CCP isn't the least interested in giving ground to the faithful (see Falung Gong.) They will agree to nearly anything, and then do precisely what they want; the agreement simply placates the opposition (that would be us) for a time, while the CCP rolls on, generation by generation, establishing its goal.
The Holy See has shown itself to be shockingly comfortable with schisms, whether in China or in Germany. Condon gets it right when he writes"...declaring a Chinese bishop (or even diocese) to be formally separated from the Holy See would effectively be to revert the Church in China to the status quo ante of 2017. While many would consider that to be a frank, even necessary acknowledgment of reality, it would also signify the titanic failure of years of patient diplomacy and a high price in sunk diplomatic costs." Instead of that frank and necessary acknowledgement of reality, the Holy See prefers to cherish its pride and refuses to acknowledge its mistakes. Instead of humbly facing the truth, the Holy See chooses arrogance and cowardice. When a better pope faced down the Communist Party in Poland, the party collapsed, and the Soviet Union soon followed. The Holy See today seems too occupied with admiring Communist China to voice any real complaints. Shame!
It was an idiotic deal predicated on the good faith of the Chinese Communists who are, by their very nature, hostile toward religion. Now they’ve made their situation worse because their bishops are, at best, beholden to two masters. Moreover, they’ve encouraged the faithful to join the above-ground Church and can’t plausibly tell them to go back underground. (And, of course, the Church has now made itself beholden to, if not complicit with, China, and therefore cannot speak out against China’s human rights abuses and *gasp* destructive environmental policies. I wonder what the Francis/Parolin line would be if China launched an attack on Taiwan tomorrow?)
This pontificate has continually engaged with the world on the world’s terms with utterly predictable results. It’s a tragic farce.
Shame on Francis and Parolin for persevering with this ridiculous deal when everyone knew what would happen. Cardinal Zen was right and Francis was wrong. And this is far from the only thing, everything Francis touches turns to ash. Everything that was entrusted to him, he has lost. Everything he he hold in trust, he has broken.
Honestly, anyone with an ounce of sense saw this coming a mile away.
The deal was partially negotiated by McCarrick And remains secret. Is there any reason to doubt that a significant yearly sum of money comes to the Vatican which runs a yearly deficit?
To me that is why the deal remains and China does what I wills. It is unbelievable under any reason. It is like having Biden be able to veto and pick and move Bishops.
Money make men do strange things.
Jack Baronas
It's certainly not the first time the Church has misjudged a political situation, whether by sending Cola di Rienzo back to run the Papal States during the Avignon Papacy or signing a concordat with Hitler, who consistently broke it. So there is no sense complaining about popes getting into bad agreements with civil authorities; they expect honesty from those they deal with and are often mistaken
I doubt your comment gives much comfort to Cardinal Zen...
I'm sure it won't. But I also feel confident his reward will be great in heaven.
So the concordat with Hitler wasn’t actually a terrible idea. Like, I get it. He’s Hitler. But by having a document signed by him stating he would do X, it gives them legal ground to complain when he didn’t do X. And they only had like 6 years of his rule to go on. So there could be hope cooler heads might prevail (narrator: cooler heads did not, in fact prevail).
The CCP has been in power since the 50s. Their actions are completely predictable in this regard. So I’m not sure it’s a fair comparison.
There's no sense in complaining about something because it's happened before? How does that work? If my son leaves the toilet seat up for the 10th time in one day should I not say anything because it's happened before?
"Beijing’s position is entirely clear: that it can and will continue to make unilateral episcopal appointments, regardless of the plain text of the deal..."
What, we didn't see this coming? There is a reason for the underground Church in China, and the reason is that the CPCA is not and never was Catholic. It is and always has been Chinese Communist. To believe anything else is a sad misapprehension of the truth. Catholics in the West who visit China do not see the Underground Church; we are not privy to the disparity, we do not have access to that protected part of our religion for fear of discovery of these small groups of the faithful, now pressed even further into the shadows by Francis's actions to legitimize the CPCA's version. The old Catholics of the underground church, and their children, know full well there will never be a free exercise of religion under the CCP.
This example might throw a little light on the problem. We Catholics have a way of viewing ecumenism as a way of converting non-Catholics to the Faith. Non-Catholics tend to see ecumenism as a way of finding common ground through cooperative study of their common, and importantly, divergent beliefs. In a similar way, I think Rome hopes to find a common meeting ground where it and the CCP can achieve "peaceful co-existence."
That will never happen.
The CCP isn't the least interested in giving ground to the faithful (see Falung Gong.) They will agree to nearly anything, and then do precisely what they want; the agreement simply placates the opposition (that would be us) for a time, while the CCP rolls on, generation by generation, establishing its goal.
Please pray for the Church in China.
The Holy See has shown itself to be shockingly comfortable with schisms, whether in China or in Germany. Condon gets it right when he writes"...declaring a Chinese bishop (or even diocese) to be formally separated from the Holy See would effectively be to revert the Church in China to the status quo ante of 2017. While many would consider that to be a frank, even necessary acknowledgment of reality, it would also signify the titanic failure of years of patient diplomacy and a high price in sunk diplomatic costs." Instead of that frank and necessary acknowledgement of reality, the Holy See prefers to cherish its pride and refuses to acknowledge its mistakes. Instead of humbly facing the truth, the Holy See chooses arrogance and cowardice. When a better pope faced down the Communist Party in Poland, the party collapsed, and the Soviet Union soon followed. The Holy See today seems too occupied with admiring Communist China to voice any real complaints. Shame!
What the heck is the BCCCC (I had to count the C's).
Anyway, it seems that the Spectator's Damian Thomson (not a fan of Francis's) was right all along...