I think the AP piece quoted the older priests for the point of the story, yes? We don’t know what those priests went on to say or if they feel despair in those words. “They’re just waiting for us to die” seems an awfully dramatic statement for a priest but I also wonder if that is the sentiment of a lot of 72 yr olds - priest or not. It is my general belief that the media does what it can to reduce the state of religion. In the writer’s mind this conservatism cannot be good - I mean, people are showing up at Mass with 4 or 5 kids? Side note - he should come to my liberalish church where there are families with 10! I do not have a church nearby where I can attend TLM but I wish I did. My teens are to the point of disgusted with the Life Teen Mass at our parish and they want to know why Mass has to be so repetitive and boring (especially the homilies). When I remind them that we are there for the one thing they cannot receive anywhere else they want to be there. But they are denied the essence of Mass. People come to Mass talking and loud, joking all through it, waving and making peace signs at each other, and the contemporary songs go on long after the priest is ready with him standing there waiting … it is not a reverent time to turn one’s attention to God and focus on the mystery unveiling itself in front of us. And that’s why, at least in my mind, my kids see it as boring. If they were given an opportunity to come into Mass that took them away from the everyday world - that would be uplifting and different. I think that is why conservative Catholicism exists today. In the late 1960s and 1970s, playing a guitar and singing the Our Father in English whole holding hands was different and exciting to that generation. Today it can seem garish and boring to a generation raised on TikTok. Also, identifying as Catholic while attending Mass each week and adhering to Church tradition and teaching gives you a real identity these days - you aren’t just one of the Catholics in name only or the CEO or cafeteria Catholics. And I think people still look for identity. Especially in a world where others say you make your own truth and gender is fluid and so on. So while I hope that there is no actual despair in an older generation of priests and I hope that all Catholics are focused on eternal salvation I saw this article as just another article taking shots at the conservatives and making them out to be small-minded nuts. And I wasn’t surprised.
It has often struck me, and Ed's commentary and yours reminded me of this, that it is just plain bizarre how *offended* some members of a certain generation are about "traditional"/"conservative" millennials and after - and I'm not talking about concern about whether or not I (or others) are making good moral choices or whether things are good for society as a whole. The idea, from the people who have approached me, at least, about head covering at Mass (or even going to Mass at all), or staying home with my kids, or how I have "so many" (I do now, but I started getting comments at three), or not always heartily endorsing any Democrat running for office, is that we could only make these decisions out of spite to get back at these people specifically. It strikes me as an exceptionally juvenile way of looking at the world, and so even sadder when people who are significantly older than me (I'm an old millennial) exhibit it and expect me to instantly rearrange my life because they are offended. What?
My thought on this is that generation thought they could remake the Church in their own image and likeness and are now having to come to grips with the next generations not buying into it. They (or at least some of them) thought they were God's gift to the Church and are now finding out that maybe they aren't. I (a millennial) see this as a good warning not to do the same myself. I have my opinions on how liturgy, music, vestments, etc.. should be, but it would be a mistake to conclude that my opinions are the same as God's eternal will and that anything my generation does in the Church are going to be permanent.
I’d just note that the AP piece was edited late April 30th. I’m wondering what was “struck” and what was “added” by Tim S and/or Jessie W. In any case, the piece lives up to my lower expectation from AP; fitting the narrative of the day. But upon further reflection, I sense a certain “fear factor” on a secular level. BTW the piece reeks of secular with total lack of understanding vis-à-vis Catholic dogma ( IMHO, of course). Truth is with an upper case T (BTW) and rhythms with Way and Life.
I am almost as old as the priests they quoted, and I certainly love the Novus Ordo and guitar Masses. On the other hand, I also love the Catechism of the Catholic Church, especially part 3. I have friends around my age who prefer different sections of it, but we all love it and try to live by it. One might also remember that the charismatic movement in the Church started in the late 1960s. And I well remember the days in Catholic school when if you were a girl and couldn't find your chapel veil the sisters would bobby pin a dirty kleenex on your hair. Tells you what they thought of girls.
Be at peace, Sue. I am only attempting a bit of light-hearted teasing.
One of the "Catholic Internet's" favorite subjects is to champion either extreme of liturgical music (i.e.-guitar masses with bongos and interpretive dance vs only Gregorian chant composed during the 16th century). I was only using your comment to lampoon this intransigence of the extremities by feigning alarm.
Please forgive me. I should once again remind everyone that I very seldom catch that someone is being sarcastic unless they say so when they post. I tend to be intransigent only with respect to ad populum because I like to adore the consecrated hosts after the consecration when I can see them, which I can't if the priest is in the way.
In the actual 1970s, maybe early 80s, we also had *autoharp and tambourine* with the St Louis Jesuits-type songs and it strikes me that I never see anyone mention autoharps (maybe it was confined to the parish where I was a kid (and, occasionally, on Easter, Jesuit Hall.))
I have been to a jazz Mass (Joe Negri's Mass of Hope) and it was a unique experience (no regrets but also trying to sing jazz was enough times for me.)
In Belgium (somewhere near Soumagne, but I can't remember the exact parish anymore), I attended Mass that was basically a Gospel concert. The Mass was on a stage under a huge tent during a Gospel festival. While Mass was going on, there were food and beer vendors selling their wares, with picnic tables set up for people to eat and drink --- all under the same "roof". The choir was an American gospel group that was traveling around, and the parish was using the proceeds to fund itself. Plenty of people were there simply to listen to American gospel-style music. To my shame, I remained there for the duration of the Mass, using the excuse that the Mass was valid enough to satisfy my Sunday obligation. Yes, Christ was there; but, surely, if he had been there in his human body we would have seen some overturned tables.
I was literally just about to add to my comment elsewhere here that at the same Easter mass (LITERALLY THIS YEAR) where the MLP Gloria was reintroduced, there was a first communion hymn complete with tambourine and the second communion hymn was “Lord of the Dance.” They do all seem of a piece, like the same choir leader thought they seemed like jazzy and festive selections for Easter. Cringe.
What does that say about what they thought about girls? I went to Catholic schools in the days when nuns were still teaching and I don’t recall feeling like they had any animus toward me or my other female classmates? They did believe in following the rules - that I recall clearly! But I don’t understand your statement and hoped you could clarify what you meant?
If you require girls who forget their hats to wear a snot filled kleenex on their hair, it shows to my mind a total disrespect for the person that's done to. Only girls had to endure that treatment.
Snot-filled Kleenex? To me that sounds like the person was mentally ill, nun or not. You implied that all nuns didn’t like girls. Do you honestly believe that? Were the boys required to cover their heads at all? Just seems like you have some issues with nuns.
For the sake of your teens, show them a reverent Mass. On youtube if nothing else. Or pray a "Dry Mass" by reading through the TLM & propers on Sunday. Don't let them get it into their heads that repetitive and boring is all there is in the Church.
We travel a lot so they’ve seen amazing reverent Masses. They’ve received the blessed sacrament kneeling at the altar rail. But it’s every week that is their reality.
Yeah. And seeing and feeling and doing regularly are very formative, and more formative the younger they are. There's no getting around it. But there are ways to mitigate it, although they'd require an additional weekly time commitment to be effective.
In the Golden Legend, St. Anne is depicted as having three husbands, with each of whom she had one child, a daughter named Mary, so that there were three sisters all named Mary.
Jeanne Grammick is, and has been for longer than the Pillar’s editors have been graced with life, a heretic. And a particularly vicious one. She disobeyed Pope SAINT John Paul the Great almost 30 years ago, and has repeatedly and repugnantly continued her proclamation of heretical homo-philic garbage.
Which is a lead in to the generation gap thing:
She, along with the kind of priests mentioned, is precisely what ‘young conservatives’ have rejected.
Those two priests mentioned are a very sad commentary on the blessedly failed liturgical and catechetical ‘innovations’ they were excrementally foisting on victim parishes. While I don’t wish them dead, of course, but I do look forward to when they have all been graced with retirement. I suffered through Masses with the Gloria and Creed excised, and sermons based on “Jonathan Livingston Seagull” (the Buddhist kiddie catechism), CCD that eliminated the Sacrament of Confession and replaced it with Judy Blume’s literary manure.
And while I prefer Mass in my language (Standard American English), Latin is infinitely better than what ‘liberals’ offered in the 70s.
I have to admit, I had to fight a strong temptation to respond to your article in a post solely composed of media quotes.
Thusly:
"So, Jerome supported the theory that James (the Less) was both son of Mary (called “of Clopas” by John but also “mother of James and Joseph” by Mark and Luke) and cousin to Christ on Mary’s side. Meaning James (the Less) and James (the brother of the Lord) are the same person but that Mary (Our Lady) also had a sister named Mary (mother of James)"
- Austin Powers: "Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed."
OR
“They say they’re trying to restore what us old guys ruined,” said the Rev. John Forliti
I used to attend Mass at St. Olaf’s Downtown in Minneapolis where Fr. Forliti was pastor. Every Mass was packed. The liturgies were reverent while contemporary. His leadership spoke to a real need, and he welcomed all comers. My husband and I were fleeing a suburban parish oppressively run by ultra feminist women.
I’m the same age as Fr. F., and it saddens me that many clergy and laypeople of our age, who grew up in the loveless rigidity of pre-Vatican II, cannot see that the needs of the people have again changed. These old timers are stuck in the ‘70s. The young clergy I know are responding to the yearning for ritual, and (for the most part) remembering that God is Love. And, to my delight, some of the old warhorses are too!
> but that Mary (Our Lady) also had a sister named Mary (mother of James).
I refer to my first cousin once removed as a cousin (the daughter of my mother's father's sibling is my cousin, and incidentally is named Mary), so we should also consider generation-skipping cousins. (These can even be the same age as oneself if the parent's generation has enough age range between siblings.) That is, maybe Mary (OL) has a relatively young Aunt Mary (actually I do have a great-aunt Mary and also another cousin, on the other side, who is also a Mary, not the removed kind of cousin) and perhaps young Aunt Mary has a son James (come to think of it, I have a cousin James, also, but he is Mary's brother, not her son. I also have a great-uncle James but not on the same side. Every one of these has a nickname or mandatory middle name, except for Aunt Mary.)
When I learned that all these instances of Mary (in the Bible) are ultimately named after Miriam the sister of Moses, I realized that "every girl is named Mary" has been going on for a really, really long time.
--> That's .... complicated. As a poster noted above: "Oh, no! I've gone cross-eyed!" Lol.
--> The man I've been calling "Uncle" Mike all my life is actually my first cousin, once-removed.
--> As part of the French class I teach, we discuss how to properly label our cousins and relatives. My students have a hard time accepting the "once-removed" business. No such thing, they say.
--> They're also adamant that they would never, ever, never marry a cousin; nope, not even a fifth- or sixth-degree cousin. Given that we live in a pretty small, rural community, I tell them it's definitely happened in their family tree before. Well, they say, that explains a lot.
My wife has first cousins who are also third cousins because her parents are from a rural community with large families. I think it is amusing and quite nice at the same time.
My husband's family is very "clannish," and when I met them it seemed so bizarre that he had a million cousins and aunts and uncles and except for the people who update the family tree for the official reunion (unofficial reunions happening all the time) nobody knew the precise relationships involved - the people around the same age as you are cousins, and anybody more than 5-10 years older than you is an aunt or uncle. They all love each other like crazy, but there's just too many of them to keep straight, especially when you're dealing with generational overlap and aunts and uncles who are born after you, possibly.
One time I was over at my little kid's grade-school friend's house chatting with the family there (immigrants, liberal-quasi-Muslim) and the little friend, who is fluently bilingual (at least), said something about "my sister so-and-so" (I was surprised since I thought he was an only child) and then he explained "actually she is my aunt BUT I call her my sister and I call my uncle my brother" and it was like being momentarily transplanted into a "brothers and sisters of Jesus: the Bible was not written in KJV English" footnote.
One of my parents’ former priests from Africa (Kenya?) said in his culture all the first cousins on the dad’s side are considered siblings, and the first cousins on the mom’s side are considered cousins. So many cultural family differences! It’s so cool to learn about them all…
--> The family tree for Jesus that I personally prefer has Clopas (also called Cleopas) married to this "other" Mary. In this understanding, Clopas was the brother of St. Joseph. Therefore, the "other" Mary was the sister-in-law of the Blessed Virgin Mary; and St. James was Jesus' first-cousin. This works because Mary was a very popular name, so it's possible for two brothers to marry someone with the same name.
--> Louisiana's new governor, Jeff Landry, is a faithful Catholic, but he's also a public servant with a heart for the good of the public. So, I have confidence that this will not become a witch hunt, but that an attempt at effecting justice.
I am also almost the same age as Sue and I grew up in pre-Vatican II area. I like the mass in English and I did attend a lot of Lifeteen masses when my youngest two boys were growing up. The church I went too had two good pastors while we lived there. We now live in Colorado and attend one of the biggest parishes in the Archdiocese of Denver. There are older people there and small and large families.Almost all the masses are packed and the homilies that I have heard are based on the Bible. We also live in Northeastern Washington state part time and go to a small parish there(The pastor has 5 parishes to cover in the area). Part of the mass is in English and part in Latin and the music is very traditional. And as J.D knows my son is a priest and when we attend a mass he does the music is more modern.
I probably shouldn’t react this way, but there is a Catholic Church only a 10 minute walk from my house. Once I realized the Gloria was sung to the tune of My Little Pony, I just couldn’t bring myself to go to Mass there, as it is so incredibly distracting (especially as an elder millennial who grew up with My little Pony). On several occasions I was tempted to send a video to the priest pointing this out, but never did. The parish is small and mostly consists of retired folks so they must not mind.
Our parish (well, the choir at the mass we attend) changed TO that Gloria last year. We rejoiced greatly when they changed back to the one we had used prior. Flash to Easter Sunday, finally the Gloria is back and what do we hear but the ominous notes of the MLP one. Sigh.
Honestly - I watched My Little Pony every Sat morning growing up (gen X), and it never even occurred to me until someone else pointed it out. Maybe they’re just happily unaware - I wish I still was… 😆
Thank you, Ed, for the reflection on your father's infatigable commitment to "being there" for you. It reminded me of my own father. He was a laborer on a delivery truck hoisting refrigerators, sofas, and other heavy objects all day. Still, he would come home and offer a game of catch or lead a Boy Scout meeting. Never was there a complaint. I did not know at the time how blessed I was.
Also, I'm embarrassed to admit it was VERY recently I realized the majority of the Walk of Life video showed failures and bloopers, only exhibiting success in the last moments. I always loved the tune, but didn't see the lesson.
The AP article on the Catholic Church could have been titled “ How the Pendulum Swings”. I would summarize the article like this. Organized religion always serves as a refuge for the emotional and psychological needs of its members. When society changes the needs of people change. In the last 30 to 40 years as society modernized and the Church held to Tradition people felt out of sync and left. Now, when the world feels more chaotic and uncertain, people seek certainty and solace in the rituals and traditions of the Church . The Church ‘s resilience in maintaining tradition while facing societal changes underscores the delicate balance between continuity and adaptation.
Ed.
Thanks for the beautiful story of a father and son.
I think Sr. Jeannine has a few wires crossed in a deliberate attempt to confuse others.
The Sisters who taught me called this "being a milllstoner." (cf, Lk 17,1-2)
I think the AP piece quoted the older priests for the point of the story, yes? We don’t know what those priests went on to say or if they feel despair in those words. “They’re just waiting for us to die” seems an awfully dramatic statement for a priest but I also wonder if that is the sentiment of a lot of 72 yr olds - priest or not. It is my general belief that the media does what it can to reduce the state of religion. In the writer’s mind this conservatism cannot be good - I mean, people are showing up at Mass with 4 or 5 kids? Side note - he should come to my liberalish church where there are families with 10! I do not have a church nearby where I can attend TLM but I wish I did. My teens are to the point of disgusted with the Life Teen Mass at our parish and they want to know why Mass has to be so repetitive and boring (especially the homilies). When I remind them that we are there for the one thing they cannot receive anywhere else they want to be there. But they are denied the essence of Mass. People come to Mass talking and loud, joking all through it, waving and making peace signs at each other, and the contemporary songs go on long after the priest is ready with him standing there waiting … it is not a reverent time to turn one’s attention to God and focus on the mystery unveiling itself in front of us. And that’s why, at least in my mind, my kids see it as boring. If they were given an opportunity to come into Mass that took them away from the everyday world - that would be uplifting and different. I think that is why conservative Catholicism exists today. In the late 1960s and 1970s, playing a guitar and singing the Our Father in English whole holding hands was different and exciting to that generation. Today it can seem garish and boring to a generation raised on TikTok. Also, identifying as Catholic while attending Mass each week and adhering to Church tradition and teaching gives you a real identity these days - you aren’t just one of the Catholics in name only or the CEO or cafeteria Catholics. And I think people still look for identity. Especially in a world where others say you make your own truth and gender is fluid and so on. So while I hope that there is no actual despair in an older generation of priests and I hope that all Catholics are focused on eternal salvation I saw this article as just another article taking shots at the conservatives and making them out to be small-minded nuts. And I wasn’t surprised.
It has often struck me, and Ed's commentary and yours reminded me of this, that it is just plain bizarre how *offended* some members of a certain generation are about "traditional"/"conservative" millennials and after - and I'm not talking about concern about whether or not I (or others) are making good moral choices or whether things are good for society as a whole. The idea, from the people who have approached me, at least, about head covering at Mass (or even going to Mass at all), or staying home with my kids, or how I have "so many" (I do now, but I started getting comments at three), or not always heartily endorsing any Democrat running for office, is that we could only make these decisions out of spite to get back at these people specifically. It strikes me as an exceptionally juvenile way of looking at the world, and so even sadder when people who are significantly older than me (I'm an old millennial) exhibit it and expect me to instantly rearrange my life because they are offended. What?
My thought on this is that generation thought they could remake the Church in their own image and likeness and are now having to come to grips with the next generations not buying into it. They (or at least some of them) thought they were God's gift to the Church and are now finding out that maybe they aren't. I (a millennial) see this as a good warning not to do the same myself. I have my opinions on how liturgy, music, vestments, etc.. should be, but it would be a mistake to conclude that my opinions are the same as God's eternal will and that anything my generation does in the Church are going to be permanent.
Wise man. I say that as a boomer who likes this return to tradition
I’d just note that the AP piece was edited late April 30th. I’m wondering what was “struck” and what was “added” by Tim S and/or Jessie W. In any case, the piece lives up to my lower expectation from AP; fitting the narrative of the day. But upon further reflection, I sense a certain “fear factor” on a secular level. BTW the piece reeks of secular with total lack of understanding vis-à-vis Catholic dogma ( IMHO, of course). Truth is with an upper case T (BTW) and rhythms with Way and Life.
John 15:18 says it all.
I am almost as old as the priests they quoted, and I certainly love the Novus Ordo and guitar Masses. On the other hand, I also love the Catechism of the Catholic Church, especially part 3. I have friends around my age who prefer different sections of it, but we all love it and try to live by it. One might also remember that the charismatic movement in the Church started in the late 1960s. And I well remember the days in Catholic school when if you were a girl and couldn't find your chapel veil the sisters would bobby pin a dirty kleenex on your hair. Tells you what they thought of girls.
"I certainly love ... guitar Masses"
InvasionOfTheBodySnatchersScream.gif
And I don't insult other people's Mass preferences even when I don't share them.
Be at peace, Sue. I am only attempting a bit of light-hearted teasing.
One of the "Catholic Internet's" favorite subjects is to champion either extreme of liturgical music (i.e.-guitar masses with bongos and interpretive dance vs only Gregorian chant composed during the 16th century). I was only using your comment to lampoon this intransigence of the extremities by feigning alarm.
Please forgive me. I should once again remind everyone that I very seldom catch that someone is being sarcastic unless they say so when they post. I tend to be intransigent only with respect to ad populum because I like to adore the consecrated hosts after the consecration when I can see them, which I can't if the priest is in the way.
You're more than fine, Sue. I love reading your thoughts here.
I had considered adding the internet abbreviation '/s' to indicate that I was joking.
In the actual 1970s, maybe early 80s, we also had *autoharp and tambourine* with the St Louis Jesuits-type songs and it strikes me that I never see anyone mention autoharps (maybe it was confined to the parish where I was a kid (and, occasionally, on Easter, Jesuit Hall.))
Huh, I don't think I've ever seen an autoharp (they are like dulcimers, right?) in a Catholic church before.
Now I wonder, what is the most eclectic instrument people have had heard played during masses? Accordions? Theremins?
I love Gregorian chant but I could dig theremins
I've been to a Polka Mass and Irish Folk Mass. I didn't particularly enjoy the vibe of the music, but Christ was there. That's enough for me.
A Polka mass. That WOULD be different.
I have been to a jazz Mass (Joe Negri's Mass of Hope) and it was a unique experience (no regrets but also trying to sing jazz was enough times for me.)
In Belgium (somewhere near Soumagne, but I can't remember the exact parish anymore), I attended Mass that was basically a Gospel concert. The Mass was on a stage under a huge tent during a Gospel festival. While Mass was going on, there were food and beer vendors selling their wares, with picnic tables set up for people to eat and drink --- all under the same "roof". The choir was an American gospel group that was traveling around, and the parish was using the proceeds to fund itself. Plenty of people were there simply to listen to American gospel-style music. To my shame, I remained there for the duration of the Mass, using the excuse that the Mass was valid enough to satisfy my Sunday obligation. Yes, Christ was there; but, surely, if he had been there in his human body we would have seen some overturned tables.
I was literally just about to add to my comment elsewhere here that at the same Easter mass (LITERALLY THIS YEAR) where the MLP Gloria was reintroduced, there was a first communion hymn complete with tambourine and the second communion hymn was “Lord of the Dance.” They do all seem of a piece, like the same choir leader thought they seemed like jazzy and festive selections for Easter. Cringe.
What does that say about what they thought about girls? I went to Catholic schools in the days when nuns were still teaching and I don’t recall feeling like they had any animus toward me or my other female classmates? They did believe in following the rules - that I recall clearly! But I don’t understand your statement and hoped you could clarify what you meant?
If you require girls who forget their hats to wear a snot filled kleenex on their hair, it shows to my mind a total disrespect for the person that's done to. Only girls had to endure that treatment.
Snot-filled Kleenex? To me that sounds like the person was mentally ill, nun or not. You implied that all nuns didn’t like girls. Do you honestly believe that? Were the boys required to cover their heads at all? Just seems like you have some issues with nuns.
For the sake of your teens, show them a reverent Mass. On youtube if nothing else. Or pray a "Dry Mass" by reading through the TLM & propers on Sunday. Don't let them get it into their heads that repetitive and boring is all there is in the Church.
https://extraordinaryform.org/masses.html
We travel a lot so they’ve seen amazing reverent Masses. They’ve received the blessed sacrament kneeling at the altar rail. But it’s every week that is their reality.
Yeah. And seeing and feeling and doing regularly are very formative, and more formative the younger they are. There's no getting around it. But there are ways to mitigate it, although they'd require an additional weekly time commitment to be effective.
In the Golden Legend, St. Anne is depicted as having three husbands, with each of whom she had one child, a daughter named Mary, so that there were three sisters all named Mary.
To continue the James thing - which one wrote the letter in the New Testament?
The brother of the lord
Jeanne Grammick is, and has been for longer than the Pillar’s editors have been graced with life, a heretic. And a particularly vicious one. She disobeyed Pope SAINT John Paul the Great almost 30 years ago, and has repeatedly and repugnantly continued her proclamation of heretical homo-philic garbage.
Which is a lead in to the generation gap thing:
She, along with the kind of priests mentioned, is precisely what ‘young conservatives’ have rejected.
Those two priests mentioned are a very sad commentary on the blessedly failed liturgical and catechetical ‘innovations’ they were excrementally foisting on victim parishes. While I don’t wish them dead, of course, but I do look forward to when they have all been graced with retirement. I suffered through Masses with the Gloria and Creed excised, and sermons based on “Jonathan Livingston Seagull” (the Buddhist kiddie catechism), CCD that eliminated the Sacrament of Confession and replaced it with Judy Blume’s literary manure.
And while I prefer Mass in my language (Standard American English), Latin is infinitely better than what ‘liberals’ offered in the 70s.
Thank God ! for the young Catholics referred to!
The Lord blessed you with a great Dad!!!
"(if you will take the word of a Spaniard)"
-"No good," the man in black replied. "I've known too many Spaniards.”
I'm really glad someone got that reference
I have to admit, I had to fight a strong temptation to respond to your article in a post solely composed of media quotes.
Thusly:
"So, Jerome supported the theory that James (the Less) was both son of Mary (called “of Clopas” by John but also “mother of James and Joseph” by Mark and Luke) and cousin to Christ on Mary’s side. Meaning James (the Less) and James (the brother of the Lord) are the same person but that Mary (Our Lady) also had a sister named Mary (mother of James)"
- Austin Powers: "Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed."
OR
“They say they’re trying to restore what us old guys ruined,” said the Rev. John Forliti
-Let US build the city of God...
I used to attend Mass at St. Olaf’s Downtown in Minneapolis where Fr. Forliti was pastor. Every Mass was packed. The liturgies were reverent while contemporary. His leadership spoke to a real need, and he welcomed all comers. My husband and I were fleeing a suburban parish oppressively run by ultra feminist women.
I’m the same age as Fr. F., and it saddens me that many clergy and laypeople of our age, who grew up in the loveless rigidity of pre-Vatican II, cannot see that the needs of the people have again changed. These old timers are stuck in the ‘70s. The young clergy I know are responding to the yearning for ritual, and (for the most part) remembering that God is Love. And, to my delight, some of the old warhorses are too!
> but that Mary (Our Lady) also had a sister named Mary (mother of James).
I refer to my first cousin once removed as a cousin (the daughter of my mother's father's sibling is my cousin, and incidentally is named Mary), so we should also consider generation-skipping cousins. (These can even be the same age as oneself if the parent's generation has enough age range between siblings.) That is, maybe Mary (OL) has a relatively young Aunt Mary (actually I do have a great-aunt Mary and also another cousin, on the other side, who is also a Mary, not the removed kind of cousin) and perhaps young Aunt Mary has a son James (come to think of it, I have a cousin James, also, but he is Mary's brother, not her son. I also have a great-uncle James but not on the same side. Every one of these has a nickname or mandatory middle name, except for Aunt Mary.)
When I learned that all these instances of Mary (in the Bible) are ultimately named after Miriam the sister of Moses, I realized that "every girl is named Mary" has been going on for a really, really long time.
I think Disney's Hercules had a pulse on the prevalence of Mary in the bible and culture at that time.
Pain: This might be a different Hercules!
Panic: Yeah. I mean, Hercules is a very popular name nowadays.
Pain: Remember like a few years ago, every other boy was named Jason and the girls were all named Britney?
--> That's .... complicated. As a poster noted above: "Oh, no! I've gone cross-eyed!" Lol.
--> The man I've been calling "Uncle" Mike all my life is actually my first cousin, once-removed.
--> As part of the French class I teach, we discuss how to properly label our cousins and relatives. My students have a hard time accepting the "once-removed" business. No such thing, they say.
--> They're also adamant that they would never, ever, never marry a cousin; nope, not even a fifth- or sixth-degree cousin. Given that we live in a pretty small, rural community, I tell them it's definitely happened in their family tree before. Well, they say, that explains a lot.
My gg parents are second cousins, French from Louisiana. Tell your students they are all related already hahaha.
Wait, ggg. Second great. I’ve got a bit of a genetic breather there hahaha.
Hahaha . Right.
My wife has first cousins who are also third cousins because her parents are from a rural community with large families. I think it is amusing and quite nice at the same time.
My husband's family is very "clannish," and when I met them it seemed so bizarre that he had a million cousins and aunts and uncles and except for the people who update the family tree for the official reunion (unofficial reunions happening all the time) nobody knew the precise relationships involved - the people around the same age as you are cousins, and anybody more than 5-10 years older than you is an aunt or uncle. They all love each other like crazy, but there's just too many of them to keep straight, especially when you're dealing with generational overlap and aunts and uncles who are born after you, possibly.
It's a very fun kind of madness.
One time I was over at my little kid's grade-school friend's house chatting with the family there (immigrants, liberal-quasi-Muslim) and the little friend, who is fluently bilingual (at least), said something about "my sister so-and-so" (I was surprised since I thought he was an only child) and then he explained "actually she is my aunt BUT I call her my sister and I call my uncle my brother" and it was like being momentarily transplanted into a "brothers and sisters of Jesus: the Bible was not written in KJV English" footnote.
One of my parents’ former priests from Africa (Kenya?) said in his culture all the first cousins on the dad’s side are considered siblings, and the first cousins on the mom’s side are considered cousins. So many cultural family differences! It’s so cool to learn about them all…
Great editing job of the music and sports! Someone worked hard on that one! Thanks for the reflection on your dad, beautiful story!
--> The family tree for Jesus that I personally prefer has Clopas (also called Cleopas) married to this "other" Mary. In this understanding, Clopas was the brother of St. Joseph. Therefore, the "other" Mary was the sister-in-law of the Blessed Virgin Mary; and St. James was Jesus' first-cousin. This works because Mary was a very popular name, so it's possible for two brothers to marry someone with the same name.
--> Louisiana's new governor, Jeff Landry, is a faithful Catholic, but he's also a public servant with a heart for the good of the public. So, I have confidence that this will not become a witch hunt, but that an attempt at effecting justice.
I am also almost the same age as Sue and I grew up in pre-Vatican II area. I like the mass in English and I did attend a lot of Lifeteen masses when my youngest two boys were growing up. The church I went too had two good pastors while we lived there. We now live in Colorado and attend one of the biggest parishes in the Archdiocese of Denver. There are older people there and small and large families.Almost all the masses are packed and the homilies that I have heard are based on the Bible. We also live in Northeastern Washington state part time and go to a small parish there(The pastor has 5 parishes to cover in the area). Part of the mass is in English and part in Latin and the music is very traditional. And as J.D knows my son is a priest and when we attend a mass he does the music is more modern.
I probably shouldn’t react this way, but there is a Catholic Church only a 10 minute walk from my house. Once I realized the Gloria was sung to the tune of My Little Pony, I just couldn’t bring myself to go to Mass there, as it is so incredibly distracting (especially as an elder millennial who grew up with My little Pony). On several occasions I was tempted to send a video to the priest pointing this out, but never did. The parish is small and mostly consists of retired folks so they must not mind.
Our parish (well, the choir at the mass we attend) changed TO that Gloria last year. We rejoiced greatly when they changed back to the one we had used prior. Flash to Easter Sunday, finally the Gloria is back and what do we hear but the ominous notes of the MLP one. Sigh.
Honestly - I watched My Little Pony every Sat morning growing up (gen X), and it never even occurred to me until someone else pointed it out. Maybe they’re just happily unaware - I wish I still was… 😆
Thank you, Ed, for the reflection on your father's infatigable commitment to "being there" for you. It reminded me of my own father. He was a laborer on a delivery truck hoisting refrigerators, sofas, and other heavy objects all day. Still, he would come home and offer a game of catch or lead a Boy Scout meeting. Never was there a complaint. I did not know at the time how blessed I was.
Also, I'm embarrassed to admit it was VERY recently I realized the majority of the Walk of Life video showed failures and bloopers, only exhibiting success in the last moments. I always loved the tune, but didn't see the lesson.
The AP article on the Catholic Church could have been titled “ How the Pendulum Swings”. I would summarize the article like this. Organized religion always serves as a refuge for the emotional and psychological needs of its members. When society changes the needs of people change. In the last 30 to 40 years as society modernized and the Church held to Tradition people felt out of sync and left. Now, when the world feels more chaotic and uncertain, people seek certainty and solace in the rituals and traditions of the Church . The Church ‘s resilience in maintaining tradition while facing societal changes underscores the delicate balance between continuity and adaptation.