We also haven’t locked people up in their homes for a couple months like in the lead up to George Floyd. A lot of what went down was due to the context in the months ahead of it:
Why leave it at a "he said"/"she said"? Is it not appropriate for you to report that Pres. Trump's characterization is blatantly false, specifically his claim that the driver "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE Officer," so violently that "it is hard to believe he is alive"? Watch the video for yourself. You can see that all involved ICE officers walked away, with no injuries apparent whatsoever. https://www.fox9.com/video/fmc-rshzshq077gp6y6k
update: I think the article was edited to add the line "According to videos of the scene..." after I posted this comment. If so, thank you. (If not, I apologize for overlooking that line, which does partially address my criticism.)
update2: A Star Tribune article this morning puts it this way: "Republican President Donald Trump, in a statement on the incident, said the driver “viciously ran over” the ICE officer, though several videos captured by bystanders do not support that claim." https://www.startribune.com/ice-raids-minnesota/601546426
It’s been happening for months. The groups responsible don’t publicize their calls. If you don’t think Antifa exists, then you have to say that all of these independent journalists who met at the White House last fall are liars. https://youtu.be/Cf6Em35gguU?si=8RSB97FubWG111bZ
Please list specific well-known persons, leaders, or politicians who have called for violence against federal agents. An anonymous "organization" does not count. I would be very interested to hear which leaders have called for political violence!
Most government officials and media outlets have cowered in fear. That silence is a kind of complicity in violence. Also: Vincible ignorance is culpable ignorance.
If the mayor were concerned about public safety, he would have had police keeping the peace and the situation could have been avoided. Instead, implicitly he pitted the protestors against ICE. This is the evil of the situation.
No, the evil of the situation is that an innocent mother was shot in the head and murdered by a federal agent.
ICE is the highest funded federal law enforcement agency in U.S. history, ranking in the top 15 or 20 top-funded militaries in the world. It’s not that they can’t afford to train their recruits, it’s that they are willfully choosing not to invest money and time in training their recruits to carry deadly weapons in the middle of high-stress, urban areas, surrounded by civilians. People do not have to die in order to fix the immigration issue.
“Donald Trump’s modern day Gestapo is scooping folks off the street. They’re in unmarked vans wearing masks being shipped off to foreign torture dungeons. No chance to mount a defense, no chance to kiss loved one goodbye. [They’re] just grabbed up by masked agents, shoved into these vans and disappear.” Take this statement from Gov Walz, does it call for violence? Not directly, but it equates government function to one of the great evils of recent history. In that, it inflames and motivates some to escalate their response.
Torture dungeons? Rather, they are processed by the expedited removal process and put on charter airlines back to their homes in South and Central American nations. One sees these flights all the time from southern airports. And let's not forget they were first offered $2500 to do this voluntarily.
Are you forgetting the deportations direct to CECOT (with little or no due process)? They were not given another option, I can assure you. (Are you also unaware of the vindictive attempts to re-deport Abrego Garcia to Africa?)
Absolutely - they are not scooping innocent people off the street. They are arresting known invaders, and the vast majority of those arrested this past year are violent criminals.
The video doesn’t provide the context of what had been happening all morning. Here is the complete DHS press conference from this evening: https://vimeo.com/1152433634
To be fair, the DHS and FBI have demonstrated *extreme* incompetence when it comes to quickly ascertaining and communicating the facts in the moments following tragic events - the "Kirk Investigation" retraction, premature social media announcements about detaining persons of interest in the Brown shooting, etc.
This shooting was recorded from several angles, by different people, including the moments leading up to the shooting and several minutes afterward. These videos appear to be a direct refutation to Kristi Noem's account, and I'm sure that a court and jury will eventually have their say.
Try communicating the complexities of the situation with social media. Our brains are hijacked by dopamine responses long before we have balanced information to work from. Social media represents a serious challenge to peace and justice.
The video he was taking on his iPhone? While unholstering his weapon with his other hand? Right before he shot her and called her a "fucking bitch?" Please, get ahold of yourself, step away from your computer and ask God for mercy.
What you're doing in this thread is embarrassing, and Christ's name is profaned among the gentiles from your public and inflammatory rhetoric.
An ejaculatory verbal expression after being struck by a weaponized vehicle is at least mitigable. And I am in no way profaning Our Lord here. Perhaps you'd be mollified by the officer referring to her with Christ's words: "Poisonous snake"???
I'm not interested in engaging with bad-faith interlocutors who manifestly witness unchristian behavior. Judiciously exercising the Block function to avoid interacting with you in the future.
I don't think the purpose of this article was to assign any blame to the officers or to defend them; Pillar certainly does not want to comment so quickly and also Pillar has been clear in not being commentary but more just reporting what happened.
You’re upset he dropped “an f-bomb” while telling ICE agents to withdraw from his city?
Please, let me give you an actual example of violent political rhetoric - The president reposted that Mark Kelly et. al. should be hanged for telling soldiers to obey the UCMJ.
Now we are engaged in a fruitless exchange of what-aboutism. Can we just discuss the event at hand, using principled arguments? Unless you’re interested in being part of the problem. I am not.
Not whataboutism - I simply asked you to provide a list of political leaders or well-known figures who have called for political violence against ICE agents. I'm still waiting. I was happy to provide an example for you, on the other hand, of an actual politician advocating for political violence.
I implore you to please exercise some wisdom and prudential judgment before posting rash and baseless claims, unless you are willing to provide concrete evidence.
Thank you for providing that source. I agree. Trump should never have retweeted that sentiment, if indeed that happened. It is very hard to determine what is real on the internet. I encourage you to be as careful with your sources as you encourage me to be.
My observation is that people often lack good will. And when we lack good will, we are ready to broadcast information that contains falsehoods. It’s a sin. It’s has consequences. Sometimes, it leads to a body count.
To be clear, do you assess both Pres. Trump and his handpicked DHS Secretary Kristi Noem to have perfect good will? (This is not mere whataboutism. I'm trying to understand why you posted the DHS press conference as if it were a reliable source.)
I wish we could eliminate the phrase “to be clear” from popular culture. It has come to mean something else entirely.
To answer your question: No, I don’t think the POTUS and Kristi Noem were immaculately conceived. I also don’t think they have criminal intent. Can you have the moral imagination to come up with other options?
Do you see any tension between these two comments of yours, posted within 25 min. of each other? 1. "Governor Tim Walz and Mayor Jacob Fry lack good will. ... Their behavior is criminal. I don’t know why they do the awful things they do. Maybe it is just cowardice, and they are afraid of Antifa..." 2. "No, I don’t think the POTUS and Kristi Noem were immaculately conceived. I also don’t think they have criminal intent. Can you have the moral imagination to come up with other options?"
I only asked this question because you brought up "good will." I would prefer that we focus on these leaders' words and actions rather than on ascribing motivations. Some of the statements of POTUS and Kristi Noem about this event are provably false. (I'm also no fan of Frey or Walz, to be clear.)
Yep. I see a lot of tension there. The tension, the confusion, the seeming contradictions… they are a feature of our culture, not a bug. We are being played in the name of interests we don’t even begin to understand.
I agree that focusing on the actual words and actions of the different players is important. It’s often very difficult to ascribe motives — though, after all of the grandstanding by these politicians over the past five years, it’s hard to pretend patterns do not exist.
We are in such a hall of mirrors culturally - especially with the internet, algorithms, artificial intelligence, and the way our brains are wired - that the safest thing seems to be to assume everyone is deceived until proven otherwise.
Primary sources are the only valid sources. No one who claims authority should be believed just because they claim authority for themselves. They should be listened to, but not automatically believed. Verify. Discern. Pray.
Governor Tim Walz and Mayor Jacob Fry lack good will. They are covering up millions of dollars of fraud, and protecting themselves by calling anyone who notices racists and xenophobes. That is not just. Their behavior is criminal. I don’t know why they do the awful things they do. Maybe it is just cowardice, and they are afraid of Antifa, and so they cannot find it within themselves to condemn the political violence that burned Minneapolis to the ground in 2020. I just am not going to sit by for a repeat performance of the injustices of 2020.
This morning, on Substack, someone wrote this to me:
“Hi, Clayton. I just read your comment which said: “If you don’t think Antifa exists, then you have to say that all of these independent journalists who met at the White House last fall are liars.”
quite right. Clayton, Antifa is real, and you should join it. at this moment in history, you can either be a fascist, or be an anti-fascist. one of these is obviously better than the other. Clayton, if you truly love Jesus Christ and his gospel, you should fight against fascism, and fight for the rights of the downtrodden, especially immigrants.”
I responded to him with this:
“Hi Joseph, I can’t be a Christian and a member of Antifa.
Antifa worships the prince of this world. Christians worship Jesus Christ.
I am a professed member of the Secular Franciscan Order. I have made a lifetime profession to follow the rule of life composed by Saint Francis of Assisi, which includes this passage:
“Mindful that they are bearers of peace which must be built up unceasingly, they should seek out ways of unity and fraternal harmony through dialogue, trusting in the presence of the divine seed in everyone and in the transforming power of love and pardon.
Messengers of perfect joy in every circumstance, they should strive to bring joy and hope to others.
Since they are immersed in the resurrection of Christ, which gives true meaning to Sister Death, let them serenely tend toward the ultimate encounter with the Father.”
I cannot foster division and violence while at the same time being faithful to the promises I have made.
I imagine you see it differently. If so, we will have to agree to disagree. I wish you well.”
By your logic, any police officer who is not shot during a self-defense shooting is at fault. Protest is one thing. Do it in front of a federal court house. However, interfering with the process of law enforcement is foolish and dangerous. That is what occurred here. Furthermore, note that the vehicle was dented and an airbag went off. This is not a low speed misunderstanding.
We can all armchair quarterback this all day, pretending like we have the competence and responsibility to adjudicate on this matter. But we don’t. It’s stupid and reckless to try.
Did you intend to reply to my comment? If so, what "logic" were you referring to?
Responding to what you're saying, though, I don't think we know to what extent Renee Good was interfering with anything. She most likely was annoying the federal agents, at the very least, based on the agitated way in which one of them approached her vehicle. I'll grant, for the sake of argument, that what she was doing previously and what she is shown on video doing was indeed "foolish and dangerous." Does it follow that her killing was justified?
A factual clarification: her vehicle only reached a high speed *after* the officer fired three shots at her (presumably after she was shot and likely unconscious, but that is unknown). Same for the dent and airbag---those are the result of the vehicle crashing *after* the disputed shooting.
Taking a step back, I appreciate that law enforcement is a difficult and dangerous job. I imagine it is beyond frustrating for people like me to sit at a desk in judgment of them. At the same time, with great power comes great responsibility. People who make poor decisions in difficult situations are held accountable all the time: stressed parents, overworked doctors, overexposed politicians, etc. So law enforcement officers too are subject to accountability when they fail to follow policies and exhibit poor judgment.
In this case, why did the officers approach the car in the first place? Even given that, why did one position himself in front of the vehicle? Even given that, why was another officer attempting to open the front door and reaching into the car, perhaps distracting the driver from even being aware that another officer was standing partly in front of her vehicle? Even given all that, which did the officer draw his weapon (as opposed to stepping aside)? Even given that, why did he continue firing his second and third shots after he was no longer in the path of the vehicle? The answers to many of these questions are probably, in part, that the officers were exasperated and not thinking clearly, but that returns us to my first question---if so, why approach the vehicle at all?
Anyway, unlike in my original comment, now I have laid out some logic. And it does not imply that any officer not shot while they shoot is at fault. (It also does not imply that Renee Good was blameless here, to be clear. But I'm more interested in assessing to what extent the officers share in the blame because I help pay their salary and they act in my name as a U.S. citizen.)
There was a local witness that said she was leading the convoy interfering with the agents. The videos start with her perpendicular to the street flow. When approached by one officer at her door and another in front, she accelerated at the officer in front. While her death is sad, what she did was dangerous and foolish, especially considering she was a mom of a 6 yr old.
To be fair, she was turning away from that officer and was accelerating in a fairly slow and controlled manner (until shot at).
edit: To be fair to the officer, though, he may have feared she intended to ram him. (At the same time, he clearly had the opportunity to step out of the way without any contact with the vehicle---and he may have actually done so, though the video I've seen also seems consistent with him being bumped or brushed by the vehicle. He was likely also able to see her, through the windshield, turning the steering wheel as quickly as she could to the right.)
I’m praying God strengthens him and uses it all for good, amplifying Archbishop Hebda as a major voice for change in our nation’s increasingly toxic culture.
The killings will continue whether in other countries or in this country. This is not the first one. The “pro-life candidate” Catholics including clergy cheered on appears to act as a monster. I pray for him, the president. May God have mercy on all of us and may the souls of all the violently departed rest in peace.
Everybody jumps on social media, looks at the first video released, and immediately forms a narrative fitting their political positions.
One side: Look at how this brave freedom fighter was ceremonially murdered by these uniformed NAZIS when she was just trying to move her car.
Other side: Undiagnosed mental patient injected herself into an active crime scene in an attempt to get herself murdered so that a mob can be whipped up to kill or expulse hard working patriots from a city become hell on earth.
The few in the middle: *reenacting Chip Diller (Kevin Bacon) in Animal House* Remain Calm, All is Well!
Everyone talks past each other. Careful analysis of ALL footage, words said, and actions prior to the tragedy is either entirely ignored or twisted so intensely to fit each side's narrative that the ribbon looks like a solid rod.
Any such violent untimely death is an unutterable tragedy. I will pray for the repose of the woman's soul, and for the comfort of bereaved loved ones.
(My wife and I say the Office for the Dead every Saturday; there are always so many departed souls needing to be prayed for, and so many grieving among the living too.)
Beyond that...well, it's not even Septuagesima yet, but Archbishop Hebda's excellently chosen words have, among other things, helped suggest to me that this is an excellent opportunity to practice what I intend to be one of my Lenten disciplines: acquiring fewer opinions about fewer things, and saying less about those opinions I have acquired.
(Yes, there's some inherent irony in my choice to broadcast those sentiments in a combox. I'm going ahead and doing it anyway.)
No one is denying the tragedy in her death. Interfering with law enforcement, ignoring their instructions, and accelerating at an officer, however, is foolhardy, dangerous, and irresponsible. She could just as easily knocked the officer back killing him. Would you be as fast to condemn that?
Please don’t bring FoxNews talking points to a Catholic site. Also, many of us are college graduates and don’t fall for partisan spin. This is not Breitbart. If you want to add value- ask why Bishop Barron has been silent on the issue.
That the above might have been repeated on Fox doesn't make it false. To what part of Werth's statement do you object? Use your education to argue your point, vs. accuse him of tribal association.
Allow me to demonstrate. Many officers are killed, and more injured, by suspects hitting them with cars fleeing from a stop. All officers know this and are trained to respond. Knowing this now, what do you think he should have done? What do you think she should have done?
Phil- Neither your “feelings” nor mine on this shooting/murder is appropriate on a Catholic website. We may have different educational and economic levels and swim in different social economic circles - BUT we are in the same pews as Catholics. Stop dividing us on politics - please. This is not only our request but also Pope Leo’s request. Help not divide.
Janus, our Catholicism does not stop at the church door. My posts are a response to those here condemning the shooting as a murder and placing blame on the ICE agent.
This is a tragedy, but I attribute a great deal of responsibility for this to the woman herself. It is coming out that her husband died in 2023 with whom she had a 6 year old son. She was now in a lesbian relationship and was part of a group that basically stalked ICE operations. She charged at an officer who just several months ago was dragged by a car while doing his job. What does all of this say about her? Her legacy is a son that is now missing both a mother and a father, an ICE agent who bears the guilt of shooting someone, and heightened strain and violence in our country. I feel great sorrow for all involved but especially for her son, who was innocently exposed to all of this.
Finally, there are 3 ironies in your original post. First, you assume that conservative means Fox News. I don't watch Fox and actually studied CNN coverage of this. Second, you parroted a form of dismissal of valid facts that is employed by every Democrat politician and news commentator. Finally, you assumed that your education level exceeded that of the person you were conversing with. I know that to be unlikely; I am also finding that independence of thought and critical thinking are not as correlated to education as one would think. Seek understanding and truth. That is at the core of Catholicism.
Nobody cares about who you think is to be blamed for the shooting. Sorry. Same point remains- this is a Catholic site not some Nick Fuentes message board. You seem to keep missing this basic point. JD/ Ed- can we find a way to stop folks from introducing their (sometimes ill informed) politics at our feet? I don’t care Nick Fuentes (an admitted racist) blames this “lesbian instigator” and nor would Jesus.
Sorry Janus. I assumed your reference to education meant you had at least some training in critical thinking. I meant no disrespect.
Unity will only occur through finding and accepting truth, and feelings are untrustworthy in this regard, but hard to put aside when the word "murder" is used.
Reading your other comments it is clear that you have made up your mind, and I am not interested in debating you. May God bless you and I hope you and your family are kept safe.
Let me just say this: I work two blocks away from where this took place (Saint Mary’s University). Right after it happened, we had students come to our chaplain asking for spiritual guidance.
We need to get off our political horses and on our knees asking for God's forgiveness. He needs to be in the middle of this all. Not politics.
Thank you! Could not agree more. Politics have NEVER been a solution for anything of true substance. God needs to be central. In everything. At all times. God be with you and your community
Hopefully, everyone will cooperate with the State of Minnesota's investigation to determine that. The defendant would have the presumption of innocence before the Minnesota Court until the verdict is reached.
Yeah - the state that deliberately fostered the frauding of billions of dollars of taxpayer money which was apparently then funneled to Al Shabab, and retaliated against whistleblowers who reported the fraud. No - let the professional at the federal level handle the investigation.
As Catholics I think we can mourn the tragedy for exactly that - a tragedy. Let the investigation determine the particulars of why. A lot of questions remain unanswered here and I pray this does not foment more violence. Pray for her family and pray for the officer involved. We live in a broken world and only the surrender to Christ will bring peace.
As has become sadly usual, the bishop's comments are sadly stupid - His inept Prominence should instead be calling for conversion to Jesus Christ. They are NOT "immigrants", they are technically invaders. When the Republican Congressman, President Trump and Charlie Kirk were shot (also done by Democrats) Republicans did not call for murdering Democrats in revenge. The calls for actual violence from lefties are not condemned by Dem politicians, but rather their comments exacerbate the situation. For decades Democrats have referred to us Americans as nazis, fascists, gestapo, etc, etc, etc, etc. It is therefore sadly to be expected that among their low-information voting base there will be those who take the 'hint' and commit violent crimes. One need only to view and listen to one of them saying he's going to bring a gun to demonstrations from now on because the ballot box is ineffective so he wants to use the bullet box.
From Isaac Saul over at Tangle, one of the best reporters out there...
-----
"Renee Good was 37 years old. The mother of three children. A poet. A wife.
[...]
One eyewitness said ICE agents gave Good conflicting instructions, with some telling her to leave while others told her to get out of the car. The video backs this up: You can hear a lot of yelling and barking orders, and the officers aren’t approaching her car with uniform calm, control, and clarity. Also, officers are never supposed to position themselves in front of a vehicle or approach it from the front for precisely this reason. DHS officers are generally prohibited from discharging a firearm at a moving vehicle, unless someone is using their car as a deadly weapon and “no other objectively reasonable means of defense is available.” DHS also has use-of-force rules, which are relatively straightforward and include a baseline “respect for human life” and “the communities we serve,” emphasizing de-escalation tactics as a core component. [He backs all of this up with sources, which I can't include here.]
"It seems pretty clear to me from the available video evidence that several of these officers violated each of these rules. The agent who approached her car and grabbed the door handle needlessly escalated the situation. The agent who killed Good positioned himself in front of the vehicle with one hand on the hood and the other on his firearm; he then discharged his weapon into a moving vehicle. As a group, the officers did not display basic respect for human life or the communities they serve, and they did not attempt to de-escalate the situation. Remember, Renee Good looked to be trying to wave the officers past her and said explicitly and clearly, “I’m pulling out” before they surrounded her vehicle and demanded she get out of her car. On a street packed with law enforcement officers and civilians, it would have been safest to allow her to drive past them, then pursue her in their own vehicles if they wanted to detain her.
[...]
"ICE shot and killed an American citizen, a 37-year-old mom, whose glove box was stuffed with children’s toys and who — prior to being confronted — at the absolute worst committed the crime of blocking traffic to try to obstruct immigration enforcement."
He then goes on to recall the tragedy of Charlie Kirk's murder, which he had lamented already in a previous newsletter.
----
Sigh... defenders of Trump and his ICE-capades... SERIOUSLY!? Is a 37-year-old mother of three, citizen of the US just lamentable collateral damage to you? How stubbornly are you going to persist in your partisan allegiances without stopping to think about whether all of this is not only counterproductive but a violation of basic justice? Or at least prudence: just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD, all things considered. Banging the gavel on "but the law, but the law, but the law" is not only un-Catholic but inhuman.
What is the cost of "enforcing the law" -- HUMAN law, mind you, as important as that is -- in the grand scheme of things? If you're going to stand by all this, you better be 100% sure that you can stand before God at the end of the day and say, "It was all worth it," because an innocent woman is now dead, leaving three children orphaned.
As for me, I cannot: these unilateral, likely unconstitutional ICE invasions need to stop. They are not worth the costs.
No agreement because it isn’t established. The invasion is by those who invaded our country - not those enforcing our laws in conformity with the constitution. Good riddance to them.
There's a decent chance that the cold weather will be the cause of these protests not turning into 2020 style riots.
It ain’t that cold here right now unfortunately.
We also haven’t locked people up in their homes for a couple months like in the lead up to George Floyd. A lot of what went down was due to the context in the months ahead of it:
Why leave it at a "he said"/"she said"? Is it not appropriate for you to report that Pres. Trump's characterization is blatantly false, specifically his claim that the driver "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE Officer," so violently that "it is hard to believe he is alive"? Watch the video for yourself. You can see that all involved ICE officers walked away, with no injuries apparent whatsoever. https://www.fox9.com/video/fmc-rshzshq077gp6y6k
update: I think the article was edited to add the line "According to videos of the scene..." after I posted this comment. If so, thank you. (If not, I apologize for overlooking that line, which does partially address my criticism.)
update2: A Star Tribune article this morning puts it this way: "Republican President Donald Trump, in a statement on the incident, said the driver “viciously ran over” the ICE officer, though several videos captured by bystanders do not support that claim." https://www.startribune.com/ice-raids-minnesota/601546426
This tragedy was totally avoidable. The politicians calling for violence against the agents is inexcusable.
Who’s calling for violence against agents, specifically?
It’s been happening for months. The groups responsible don’t publicize their calls. If you don’t think Antifa exists, then you have to say that all of these independent journalists who met at the White House last fall are liars. https://youtu.be/Cf6Em35gguU?si=8RSB97FubWG111bZ
Please list specific well-known persons, leaders, or politicians who have called for violence against federal agents. An anonymous "organization" does not count. I would be very interested to hear which leaders have called for political violence!
https://www.thefp.com/p/the-right-response-to-the-minneapolis
Most government officials and media outlets have cowered in fear. That silence is a kind of complicity in violence. Also: Vincible ignorance is culpable ignorance.
If the mayor were concerned about public safety, he would have had police keeping the peace and the situation could have been avoided. Instead, implicitly he pitted the protestors against ICE. This is the evil of the situation.
No, the evil of the situation is that an innocent mother was shot in the head and murdered by a federal agent.
ICE is the highest funded federal law enforcement agency in U.S. history, ranking in the top 15 or 20 top-funded militaries in the world. It’s not that they can’t afford to train their recruits, it’s that they are willfully choosing not to invest money and time in training their recruits to carry deadly weapons in the middle of high-stress, urban areas, surrounded by civilians. People do not have to die in order to fix the immigration issue.
Shameful.
“Donald Trump’s modern day Gestapo is scooping folks off the street. They’re in unmarked vans wearing masks being shipped off to foreign torture dungeons. No chance to mount a defense, no chance to kiss loved one goodbye. [They’re] just grabbed up by masked agents, shoved into these vans and disappear.” Take this statement from Gov Walz, does it call for violence? Not directly, but it equates government function to one of the great evils of recent history. In that, it inflames and motivates some to escalate their response.
Aside from the Gestapo label, do you dispute the factual characterizations in the rest of that quote?
Torture dungeons? Rather, they are processed by the expedited removal process and put on charter airlines back to their homes in South and Central American nations. One sees these flights all the time from southern airports. And let's not forget they were first offered $2500 to do this voluntarily.
Are you forgetting the deportations direct to CECOT (with little or no due process)? They were not given another option, I can assure you. (Are you also unaware of the vindictive attempts to re-deport Abrego Garcia to Africa?)
Absolutely - they are not scooping innocent people off the street. They are arresting known invaders, and the vast majority of those arrested this past year are violent criminals.
Do you have a source for the assertion that the majority of those arrested this past year have committed violent crime?
I have an estimate from the conservative CATO estimate of 5% had a violent criminal conviction (and they provide a detailed breakdown of what they categorized as violent crime): https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convictions-73-no-convictions
And that low rate also appears backed up by CBPs own counts of criminal records among those arrested, compared to their total numbers of arrests:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-alien-statistics
The video doesn’t provide the context of what had been happening all morning. Here is the complete DHS press conference from this evening: https://vimeo.com/1152433634
To be fair, the DHS and FBI have demonstrated *extreme* incompetence when it comes to quickly ascertaining and communicating the facts in the moments following tragic events - the "Kirk Investigation" retraction, premature social media announcements about detaining persons of interest in the Brown shooting, etc.
This shooting was recorded from several angles, by different people, including the moments leading up to the shooting and several minutes afterward. These videos appear to be a direct refutation to Kristi Noem's account, and I'm sure that a court and jury will eventually have their say.
Try communicating the complexities of the situation with social media. Our brains are hijacked by dopamine responses long before we have balanced information to work from. Social media represents a serious challenge to peace and justice.
Do you remember how videos circulated - and some of them disappeared - during the George Floyd event? It’s very easy to manipulate public opinion.
No they don't when the actual officer's video is viewed.
The video he was taking on his iPhone? While unholstering his weapon with his other hand? Right before he shot her and called her a "fucking bitch?" Please, get ahold of yourself, step away from your computer and ask God for mercy.
What you're doing in this thread is embarrassing, and Christ's name is profaned among the gentiles from your public and inflammatory rhetoric.
All there videos were on cell phones - duhh.
An ejaculatory verbal expression after being struck by a weaponized vehicle is at least mitigable. And I am in no way profaning Our Lord here. Perhaps you'd be mollified by the officer referring to her with Christ's words: "Poisonous snake"???
I'm not interested in engaging with bad-faith interlocutors who manifestly witness unchristian behavior. Judiciously exercising the Block function to avoid interacting with you in the future.
I don't think the purpose of this article was to assign any blame to the officers or to defend them; Pillar certainly does not want to comment so quickly and also Pillar has been clear in not being commentary but more just reporting what happened.
I didn't say anything about blame or commentary. I'm talking about simple facts such as whether the ICE officer was run over.
Cell phone video of Agent who was struck. Video just posted on X.
Mayor Jacob Frey, for starters. The exact quote is included in this editorial: https://www.thefp.com/p/the-right-response-to-the-minneapolis
You’re upset he dropped “an f-bomb” while telling ICE agents to withdraw from his city?
Please, let me give you an actual example of violent political rhetoric - The president reposted that Mark Kelly et. al. should be hanged for telling soldiers to obey the UCMJ.
Now we are engaged in a fruitless exchange of what-aboutism. Can we just discuss the event at hand, using principled arguments? Unless you’re interested in being part of the problem. I am not.
Can you please cite a primary source in which Trump mentioned hanging? I’ve been looking and haven’t found one yet.
Not whataboutism - I simply asked you to provide a list of political leaders or well-known figures who have called for political violence against ICE agents. I'm still waiting. I was happy to provide an example for you, on the other hand, of an actual politician advocating for political violence.
Regarding Trump calling for Mike Kelly to be hanged - he "retruthed" a post that said, "HANG THEM GEORGE WASHINGTON WOULD !!". (https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/trump-shared-post-calling-hang-202426082.html). Seems a bit inappropriate, wouldn't you say?
I implore you to please exercise some wisdom and prudential judgment before posting rash and baseless claims, unless you are willing to provide concrete evidence.
Thank you for providing that source. I agree. Trump should never have retweeted that sentiment, if indeed that happened. It is very hard to determine what is real on the internet. I encourage you to be as careful with your sources as you encourage me to be.
My observation is that people often lack good will. And when we lack good will, we are ready to broadcast information that contains falsehoods. It’s a sin. It’s has consequences. Sometimes, it leads to a body count.
To be clear, do you assess both Pres. Trump and his handpicked DHS Secretary Kristi Noem to have perfect good will? (This is not mere whataboutism. I'm trying to understand why you posted the DHS press conference as if it were a reliable source.)
I wish we could eliminate the phrase “to be clear” from popular culture. It has come to mean something else entirely.
To answer your question: No, I don’t think the POTUS and Kristi Noem were immaculately conceived. I also don’t think they have criminal intent. Can you have the moral imagination to come up with other options?
Do you see any tension between these two comments of yours, posted within 25 min. of each other? 1. "Governor Tim Walz and Mayor Jacob Fry lack good will. ... Their behavior is criminal. I don’t know why they do the awful things they do. Maybe it is just cowardice, and they are afraid of Antifa..." 2. "No, I don’t think the POTUS and Kristi Noem were immaculately conceived. I also don’t think they have criminal intent. Can you have the moral imagination to come up with other options?"
I only asked this question because you brought up "good will." I would prefer that we focus on these leaders' words and actions rather than on ascribing motivations. Some of the statements of POTUS and Kristi Noem about this event are provably false. (I'm also no fan of Frey or Walz, to be clear.)
Yep. I see a lot of tension there. The tension, the confusion, the seeming contradictions… they are a feature of our culture, not a bug. We are being played in the name of interests we don’t even begin to understand.
I agree that focusing on the actual words and actions of the different players is important. It’s often very difficult to ascribe motives — though, after all of the grandstanding by these politicians over the past five years, it’s hard to pretend patterns do not exist.
We are in such a hall of mirrors culturally - especially with the internet, algorithms, artificial intelligence, and the way our brains are wired - that the safest thing seems to be to assume everyone is deceived until proven otherwise.
Primary sources are the only valid sources. No one who claims authority should be believed just because they claim authority for themselves. They should be listened to, but not automatically believed. Verify. Discern. Pray.
Governor Tim Walz and Mayor Jacob Fry lack good will. They are covering up millions of dollars of fraud, and protecting themselves by calling anyone who notices racists and xenophobes. That is not just. Their behavior is criminal. I don’t know why they do the awful things they do. Maybe it is just cowardice, and they are afraid of Antifa, and so they cannot find it within themselves to condemn the political violence that burned Minneapolis to the ground in 2020. I just am not going to sit by for a repeat performance of the injustices of 2020.
Out of curiosity, are you any relation to Tom Emmer of MN?
This morning, on Substack, someone wrote this to me:
“Hi, Clayton. I just read your comment which said: “If you don’t think Antifa exists, then you have to say that all of these independent journalists who met at the White House last fall are liars.”
quite right. Clayton, Antifa is real, and you should join it. at this moment in history, you can either be a fascist, or be an anti-fascist. one of these is obviously better than the other. Clayton, if you truly love Jesus Christ and his gospel, you should fight against fascism, and fight for the rights of the downtrodden, especially immigrants.”
I responded to him with this:
“Hi Joseph, I can’t be a Christian and a member of Antifa.
Antifa worships the prince of this world. Christians worship Jesus Christ.
I am a professed member of the Secular Franciscan Order. I have made a lifetime profession to follow the rule of life composed by Saint Francis of Assisi, which includes this passage:
“Mindful that they are bearers of peace which must be built up unceasingly, they should seek out ways of unity and fraternal harmony through dialogue, trusting in the presence of the divine seed in everyone and in the transforming power of love and pardon.
Messengers of perfect joy in every circumstance, they should strive to bring joy and hope to others.
Since they are immersed in the resurrection of Christ, which gives true meaning to Sister Death, let them serenely tend toward the ultimate encounter with the Father.”
I cannot foster division and violence while at the same time being faithful to the promises I have made.
I imagine you see it differently. If so, we will have to agree to disagree. I wish you well.”
By your logic, any police officer who is not shot during a self-defense shooting is at fault. Protest is one thing. Do it in front of a federal court house. However, interfering with the process of law enforcement is foolish and dangerous. That is what occurred here. Furthermore, note that the vehicle was dented and an airbag went off. This is not a low speed misunderstanding.
It's worth watching the video if you have not. It looks pretty clear to me that the crash/airbag/car denting happens well after the driver is shot.
We can all armchair quarterback this all day, pretending like we have the competence and responsibility to adjudicate on this matter. But we don’t. It’s stupid and reckless to try.
I would agree. Anyone with any information should be fully cooperating with the State of Minnesota's investigation.
Did you intend to reply to my comment? If so, what "logic" were you referring to?
Responding to what you're saying, though, I don't think we know to what extent Renee Good was interfering with anything. She most likely was annoying the federal agents, at the very least, based on the agitated way in which one of them approached her vehicle. I'll grant, for the sake of argument, that what she was doing previously and what she is shown on video doing was indeed "foolish and dangerous." Does it follow that her killing was justified?
A factual clarification: her vehicle only reached a high speed *after* the officer fired three shots at her (presumably after she was shot and likely unconscious, but that is unknown). Same for the dent and airbag---those are the result of the vehicle crashing *after* the disputed shooting.
Taking a step back, I appreciate that law enforcement is a difficult and dangerous job. I imagine it is beyond frustrating for people like me to sit at a desk in judgment of them. At the same time, with great power comes great responsibility. People who make poor decisions in difficult situations are held accountable all the time: stressed parents, overworked doctors, overexposed politicians, etc. So law enforcement officers too are subject to accountability when they fail to follow policies and exhibit poor judgment.
In this case, why did the officers approach the car in the first place? Even given that, why did one position himself in front of the vehicle? Even given that, why was another officer attempting to open the front door and reaching into the car, perhaps distracting the driver from even being aware that another officer was standing partly in front of her vehicle? Even given all that, which did the officer draw his weapon (as opposed to stepping aside)? Even given that, why did he continue firing his second and third shots after he was no longer in the path of the vehicle? The answers to many of these questions are probably, in part, that the officers were exasperated and not thinking clearly, but that returns us to my first question---if so, why approach the vehicle at all?
Anyway, unlike in my original comment, now I have laid out some logic. And it does not imply that any officer not shot while they shoot is at fault. (It also does not imply that Renee Good was blameless here, to be clear. But I'm more interested in assessing to what extent the officers share in the blame because I help pay their salary and they act in my name as a U.S. citizen.)
There was a local witness that said she was leading the convoy interfering with the agents. The videos start with her perpendicular to the street flow. When approached by one officer at her door and another in front, she accelerated at the officer in front. While her death is sad, what she did was dangerous and foolish, especially considering she was a mom of a 6 yr old.
To be fair, she was turning away from that officer and was accelerating in a fairly slow and controlled manner (until shot at).
edit: To be fair to the officer, though, he may have feared she intended to ram him. (At the same time, he clearly had the opportunity to step out of the way without any contact with the vehicle---and he may have actually done so, though the video I've seen also seems consistent with him being bumped or brushed by the vehicle. He was likely also able to see her, through the windshield, turning the steering wheel as quickly as she could to the right.)
Would that local witness be willing to come forward in the State of Minnesota's investigation?
I would assume so, as this individual was interviewed on a news broadcast.
That is good news. Certain quarters have said they would not cooperate with a Minnesota investigation.
Body cam footage from agent who was struck has just been released on X.
Every party with any information should be fully cooperating with the State of Minnesota's investigation.
What is it with Kurt's Mn fetish????
That state is politically dysfunctional because of fraud (state government facilitated / protected) and mohammedan invaders swarming it.
Pray for Bishop Hebda. His plate has been heavy with tragedy.
I feel so terrible for him, having to navigate such tragedy - he's a good man, one of the best.
I’m praying God strengthens him and uses it all for good, amplifying Archbishop Hebda as a major voice for change in our nation’s increasingly toxic culture.
He's such a good bishop. I met him during his brief time as co-adjutor Archbishop of Newark. Our loss was Minnesota's gain.
Yeah, I pray he'll stop claiming it's our laws that need to be "reformed" instead of the morality of those who invade our country.
The killings will continue whether in other countries or in this country. This is not the first one. The “pro-life candidate” Catholics including clergy cheered on appears to act as a monster. I pray for him, the president. May God have mercy on all of us and may the souls of all the violently departed rest in peace.
I have come to truly despise these incidents.
Everybody jumps on social media, looks at the first video released, and immediately forms a narrative fitting their political positions.
One side: Look at how this brave freedom fighter was ceremonially murdered by these uniformed NAZIS when she was just trying to move her car.
Other side: Undiagnosed mental patient injected herself into an active crime scene in an attempt to get herself murdered so that a mob can be whipped up to kill or expulse hard working patriots from a city become hell on earth.
The few in the middle: *reenacting Chip Diller (Kevin Bacon) in Animal House* Remain Calm, All is Well!
Everyone talks past each other. Careful analysis of ALL footage, words said, and actions prior to the tragedy is either entirely ignored or twisted so intensely to fit each side's narrative that the ribbon looks like a solid rod.
BATTLESTATIONS! READY! TO HELL WITH AIMING! FIRE!
Any such violent untimely death is an unutterable tragedy. I will pray for the repose of the woman's soul, and for the comfort of bereaved loved ones.
(My wife and I say the Office for the Dead every Saturday; there are always so many departed souls needing to be prayed for, and so many grieving among the living too.)
Beyond that...well, it's not even Septuagesima yet, but Archbishop Hebda's excellently chosen words have, among other things, helped suggest to me that this is an excellent opportunity to practice what I intend to be one of my Lenten disciplines: acquiring fewer opinions about fewer things, and saying less about those opinions I have acquired.
(Yes, there's some inherent irony in my choice to broadcast those sentiments in a combox. I'm going ahead and doing it anyway.)
Is the problem here "rhetoric" or is the problem that a woman was violently killed by federal agents? Gimme a break.
The problem is she charged at a law enforcement officer.
It appears FBI "investigators" have entered the chat.
What hope is there for different sides of our country to come together when the murder of a woman by federal agents isn't universally condemned?
No one is denying the tragedy in her death. Interfering with law enforcement, ignoring their instructions, and accelerating at an officer, however, is foolhardy, dangerous, and irresponsible. She could just as easily knocked the officer back killing him. Would you be as fast to condemn that?
Please don’t bring FoxNews talking points to a Catholic site. Also, many of us are college graduates and don’t fall for partisan spin. This is not Breitbart. If you want to add value- ask why Bishop Barron has been silent on the issue.
That the above might have been repeated on Fox doesn't make it false. To what part of Werth's statement do you object? Use your education to argue your point, vs. accuse him of tribal association.
Allow me to demonstrate. Many officers are killed, and more injured, by suspects hitting them with cars fleeing from a stop. All officers know this and are trained to respond. Knowing this now, what do you think he should have done? What do you think she should have done?
Phil- Neither your “feelings” nor mine on this shooting/murder is appropriate on a Catholic website. We may have different educational and economic levels and swim in different social economic circles - BUT we are in the same pews as Catholics. Stop dividing us on politics - please. This is not only our request but also Pope Leo’s request. Help not divide.
Janus, our Catholicism does not stop at the church door. My posts are a response to those here condemning the shooting as a murder and placing blame on the ICE agent.
This is a tragedy, but I attribute a great deal of responsibility for this to the woman herself. It is coming out that her husband died in 2023 with whom she had a 6 year old son. She was now in a lesbian relationship and was part of a group that basically stalked ICE operations. She charged at an officer who just several months ago was dragged by a car while doing his job. What does all of this say about her? Her legacy is a son that is now missing both a mother and a father, an ICE agent who bears the guilt of shooting someone, and heightened strain and violence in our country. I feel great sorrow for all involved but especially for her son, who was innocently exposed to all of this.
Finally, there are 3 ironies in your original post. First, you assume that conservative means Fox News. I don't watch Fox and actually studied CNN coverage of this. Second, you parroted a form of dismissal of valid facts that is employed by every Democrat politician and news commentator. Finally, you assumed that your education level exceeded that of the person you were conversing with. I know that to be unlikely; I am also finding that independence of thought and critical thinking are not as correlated to education as one would think. Seek understanding and truth. That is at the core of Catholicism.
Thank you for letting us know she was a lesbian. Now we know she was at fault.
Nobody cares about who you think is to be blamed for the shooting. Sorry. Same point remains- this is a Catholic site not some Nick Fuentes message board. You seem to keep missing this basic point. JD/ Ed- can we find a way to stop folks from introducing their (sometimes ill informed) politics at our feet? I don’t care Nick Fuentes (an admitted racist) blames this “lesbian instigator” and nor would Jesus.
Sorry Janus. I assumed your reference to education meant you had at least some training in critical thinking. I meant no disrespect.
Unity will only occur through finding and accepting truth, and feelings are untrustworthy in this regard, but hard to put aside when the word "murder" is used.
Your snide condescension belies your claim to be Catholic.
I would condemn any form of violence and I have.
Reading your other comments it is clear that you have made up your mind, and I am not interested in debating you. May God bless you and I hope you and your family are kept safe.
She wasn't murdered.
Let me just say this: I work two blocks away from where this took place (Saint Mary’s University). Right after it happened, we had students come to our chaplain asking for spiritual guidance.
We need to get off our political horses and on our knees asking for God's forgiveness. He needs to be in the middle of this all. Not politics.
Thank you! Could not agree more. Politics have NEVER been a solution for anything of true substance. God needs to be central. In everything. At all times. God be with you and your community
It is unfortunate that a political group can allow illegal immigration yet another political group is critiqued for enforcing immigration laws.
Congress could change the law either way; but there is no courage.
Mark 12:17
“Jesus said to them, ‘Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.’ And they marveled at him.”
The murdered woman was not an immigrant.
Nor was she murdered….
Hopefully, everyone will cooperate with the State of Minnesota's investigation to determine that. The defendant would have the presumption of innocence before the Minnesota Court until the verdict is reached.
Yeah - the state that deliberately fostered the frauding of billions of dollars of taxpayer money which was apparently then funneled to Al Shabab, and retaliated against whistleblowers who reported the fraud. No - let the professional at the federal level handle the investigation.
Working overtime to make sure no facts come out in this case.
As Catholics I think we can mourn the tragedy for exactly that - a tragedy. Let the investigation determine the particulars of why. A lot of questions remain unanswered here and I pray this does not foment more violence. Pray for her family and pray for the officer involved. We live in a broken world and only the surrender to Christ will bring peace.
As has become sadly usual, the bishop's comments are sadly stupid - His inept Prominence should instead be calling for conversion to Jesus Christ. They are NOT "immigrants", they are technically invaders. When the Republican Congressman, President Trump and Charlie Kirk were shot (also done by Democrats) Republicans did not call for murdering Democrats in revenge. The calls for actual violence from lefties are not condemned by Dem politicians, but rather their comments exacerbate the situation. For decades Democrats have referred to us Americans as nazis, fascists, gestapo, etc, etc, etc, etc. It is therefore sadly to be expected that among their low-information voting base there will be those who take the 'hint' and commit violent crimes. One need only to view and listen to one of them saying he's going to bring a gun to demonstrations from now on because the ballot box is ineffective so he wants to use the bullet box.
You're sick.
Why the ad hominem? I didn’t attack you, nor anyone else here.
Because you posted a racist rant.
From Isaac Saul over at Tangle, one of the best reporters out there...
-----
"Renee Good was 37 years old. The mother of three children. A poet. A wife.
[...]
One eyewitness said ICE agents gave Good conflicting instructions, with some telling her to leave while others told her to get out of the car. The video backs this up: You can hear a lot of yelling and barking orders, and the officers aren’t approaching her car with uniform calm, control, and clarity. Also, officers are never supposed to position themselves in front of a vehicle or approach it from the front for precisely this reason. DHS officers are generally prohibited from discharging a firearm at a moving vehicle, unless someone is using their car as a deadly weapon and “no other objectively reasonable means of defense is available.” DHS also has use-of-force rules, which are relatively straightforward and include a baseline “respect for human life” and “the communities we serve,” emphasizing de-escalation tactics as a core component. [He backs all of this up with sources, which I can't include here.]
"It seems pretty clear to me from the available video evidence that several of these officers violated each of these rules. The agent who approached her car and grabbed the door handle needlessly escalated the situation. The agent who killed Good positioned himself in front of the vehicle with one hand on the hood and the other on his firearm; he then discharged his weapon into a moving vehicle. As a group, the officers did not display basic respect for human life or the communities they serve, and they did not attempt to de-escalate the situation. Remember, Renee Good looked to be trying to wave the officers past her and said explicitly and clearly, “I’m pulling out” before they surrounded her vehicle and demanded she get out of her car. On a street packed with law enforcement officers and civilians, it would have been safest to allow her to drive past them, then pursue her in their own vehicles if they wanted to detain her.
[...]
"ICE shot and killed an American citizen, a 37-year-old mom, whose glove box was stuffed with children’s toys and who — prior to being confronted — at the absolute worst committed the crime of blocking traffic to try to obstruct immigration enforcement."
He then goes on to recall the tragedy of Charlie Kirk's murder, which he had lamented already in a previous newsletter.
----
Sigh... defenders of Trump and his ICE-capades... SERIOUSLY!? Is a 37-year-old mother of three, citizen of the US just lamentable collateral damage to you? How stubbornly are you going to persist in your partisan allegiances without stopping to think about whether all of this is not only counterproductive but a violation of basic justice? Or at least prudence: just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD, all things considered. Banging the gavel on "but the law, but the law, but the law" is not only un-Catholic but inhuman.
What is the cost of "enforcing the law" -- HUMAN law, mind you, as important as that is -- in the grand scheme of things? If you're going to stand by all this, you better be 100% sure that you can stand before God at the end of the day and say, "It was all worth it," because an innocent woman is now dead, leaving three children orphaned.
As for me, I cannot: these unilateral, likely unconstitutional ICE invasions need to stop. They are not worth the costs.
Dead, everyone agrees. “Innocent”?
No agreement because it isn’t established. The invasion is by those who invaded our country - not those enforcing our laws in conformity with the constitution. Good riddance to them.