oversight. my thought is that the organizers of the synod are Vatican bureaucrats (not a pejorative, just a reality) and academics. They think through those lenses. So while most people's experience of the church is parish -- where there are deacons and pastors and DREs and people of all kinds -- the organizers tended to organize according to their own experience, and therefore oversampled for bureaucrats and academics.
As I recall, The Pillar reported a story early in the synodal process, and whoever was organizing it (Cardinal Mario Grech, maybe?) listed all those who would be included. After a long list, as if an afterthought, he mentioned permanent deacons.
I thought most countries didn't have many, or any. The US has 2/3 of all there are in the Americas, despite having such a small percentage of Catholics that we are considered mission territory. There are hardly any in Africa and the East.
I think it is simply another euro centric thing, other than England and Scotland central and Eastern Europe (here the exception is deacons of the Eastern Churches) have few deacons.
I remember looking at the catholic hierarchy search engine and every priest and bishop I knew had their lineage stop at Rebiba. I was so, so confused! Now I know why.
It is frustrating that the recordkeeping was so spotty, although I fully understand that even if it hadn't been spotty we might not be lucky enough to have extant copies of the records today. Earthquake fire flood plague theft etc.
Wow. This definitely sent me down a rabbit hole of wanting to find ANY Latin church bishop whose episcopal lineage doesn't descend from Cardinal Rebiba.
First I found: Bishop Paolo Bizzeti, Apostolic Vicar of Anatolia (Turkey)- Despite being a Latin Catholic, he was consecrated by Archbishop Cyril Vasil, the Slovak archbishop who has recently been in the news for attempting to mediate the Syro-Malabar liturgy wars. +Vasil's episcopal lineage is in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. So only by finding a Latin bishop with an entirely Byzantine episcopal lineage have I managed to find a Latin bishop whose lineage does not trace to Rebiba.
I look forward to reading that someday. I also think it'd be neat to have non Rebiba lines introduced into a broader swath of the episcopate...almost like a ecclesiastical version of biodiversity.
And I suppose, given that +Bizzeti has consecrated an auxiliary in his see, there is now another eastern line of Latin bishops beyond the Maronite and Chaldean lines mentioned by that source.
I thought Luke was going on vacation for Easter week, and this is becoming a very long week. At least there's nothing wrong with my phone or with him, thank God.
When I realized we couldn’t trace our bishops back to the apostles, it made me quite sad. While I certainly believe we have an unbroken lineage, it’s sad we can’t firmly trace it back.
I was initially just going to note that the horse talk put me in mind of Potoooooooo, one of the great names in horses, but was delighted to find that his sire was...Eclipse!
Question with the Rebiba bottleneck: Isn't the norm to have multiple bishops perform an episcopal ordination? Are the other bishops in an ordination tracked? Can we get through the bottleneck that way?
They're needed to run the parish. Send the pastor, as long Masses are covered, and things will continue to operate smoothly. Send the secretary, on the other hand... different story.
I once owned a descendant of Eclipse. He was only ever really fast when he was running away with me. When I wanted to go fast he wasn't. His name was Darty (D'artagnan). I loved having a horse so much. I am poor now and my priorities are different.
Any thoughts on why Permanent Deacons have been excluded from the Synod?
oversight. my thought is that the organizers of the synod are Vatican bureaucrats (not a pejorative, just a reality) and academics. They think through those lenses. So while most people's experience of the church is parish -- where there are deacons and pastors and DREs and people of all kinds -- the organizers tended to organize according to their own experience, and therefore oversampled for bureaucrats and academics.
If I were organizing it, I'd probably over sample for canon lawyers and journalists, I'd imagine.
God save us and preserve us... (I joke of course)
Over-sample for canon lawyers and journalists?
Would that even be *possible*?
I was wondering if it was because the permanent diaconate is not universally recognized in the Church.
As I recall, The Pillar reported a story early in the synodal process, and whoever was organizing it (Cardinal Mario Grech, maybe?) listed all those who would be included. After a long list, as if an afterthought, he mentioned permanent deacons.
I thought most countries didn't have many, or any. The US has 2/3 of all there are in the Americas, despite having such a small percentage of Catholics that we are considered mission territory. There are hardly any in Africa and the East.
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/where-in-the-world-are-permanent
Oversight (a major one) excluding deacons?
That's the current spin.
I think it is simply another euro centric thing, other than England and Scotland central and Eastern Europe (here the exception is deacons of the Eastern Churches) have few deacons.
Thanks for re-telling a story which needs to be heard.
the martyrs or the horse?
Not trivializing the martyrs, but the “Eclipse of the Episcopacy” episode is a particularly fine frolic.
I remember looking at the catholic hierarchy search engine and every priest and bishop I knew had their lineage stop at Rebiba. I was so, so confused! Now I know why.
It is frustrating that the recordkeeping was so spotty, although I fully understand that even if it hadn't been spotty we might not be lucky enough to have extant copies of the records today. Earthquake fire flood plague theft etc.
War.
Wow. This definitely sent me down a rabbit hole of wanting to find ANY Latin church bishop whose episcopal lineage doesn't descend from Cardinal Rebiba.
First I found: Bishop Paolo Bizzeti, Apostolic Vicar of Anatolia (Turkey)- Despite being a Latin Catholic, he was consecrated by Archbishop Cyril Vasil, the Slovak archbishop who has recently been in the news for attempting to mediate the Syro-Malabar liturgy wars. +Vasil's episcopal lineage is in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. So only by finding a Latin bishop with an entirely Byzantine episcopal lineage have I managed to find a Latin bishop whose lineage does not trace to Rebiba.
According to a source I found, dated 2014...
" The four small active [non-Rebiba] Roman-rite lines account for a total of 48 bishops, divided as follows:
*the Ravizza line – 4 living members
*the de Bovet line – 9 living members
*the von Bodman line – 11 living membes
*the d’Estouteville lines – 23 living members"
I've been emailing with a guy who studies the non Rebiba lines. I'm pretty sure I'm going to interview him for The Pillar.
I look forward to reading that someday. I also think it'd be neat to have non Rebiba lines introduced into a broader swath of the episcopate...almost like a ecclesiastical version of biodiversity.
This is exactly what I wanted haha
And I suppose, given that +Bizzeti has consecrated an auxiliary in his see, there is now another eastern line of Latin bishops beyond the Maronite and Chaldean lines mentioned by that source.
He's so crucial a figure, no wonder they named a soft drink after him!
Oh, wait...that's Ribena, not Rebiba. Never mind.
We miss Luke… hurry back!
I thought Luke was going on vacation for Easter week, and this is becoming a very long week. At least there's nothing wrong with my phone or with him, thank God.
It's Easter Tuesday? I thought that was last Tuesday, April 2.
It's AN easter tuesday! The liturgical season of Easter continues.
When I realized we couldn’t trace our bishops back to the apostles, it made me quite sad. While I certainly believe we have an unbroken lineage, it’s sad we can’t firmly trace it back.
I was initially just going to note that the horse talk put me in mind of Potoooooooo, one of the great names in horses, but was delighted to find that his sire was...Eclipse!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potoooooooo
Question with the Rebiba bottleneck: Isn't the norm to have multiple bishops perform an episcopal ordination? Are the other bishops in an ordination tracked? Can we get through the bottleneck that way?
Are parish secretaries represented in the synod? Because they know what’s really going on.
They're needed to run the parish. Send the pastor, as long Masses are covered, and things will continue to operate smoothly. Send the secretary, on the other hand... different story.
I once owned a descendant of Eclipse. He was only ever really fast when he was running away with me. When I wanted to go fast he wasn't. His name was Darty (D'artagnan). I loved having a horse so much. I am poor now and my priorities are different.
having a horse sounds wonderful.
It is, but not as wonderful as having a bishop!