The word that comes first is the qualifier. "Roman Catholic" is often a pejorative used by Protestants hearkening back to the age before the word "Protestant" existed and there was no distinction between Christian and Catholic in the public lexicon. I've also seen it used within the Church, though, as a distinguisher between Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics, though I think it's inartful.
Understood. If you'll pardon my persistence though, by that logic the term "Latin Catholic" would be equally problematic given that it would imply that one's Latinism has precedence over one's Catholicism, no? I've always considered the noun modified to be primary and the modifying adjective to be secondary e.g. a red car.
I think in relation to "Roman Catholic" it means one's Catholic identity cannot be understood without and is intrinsically qualified by the link to Rome, which mine is. The same holds for my point about soi dissant "American Catholics." I would like to think my Catholicism is unqualified by my nationality in any way.
Nevertheless, as your earlier comment shows, there is nothing incorrect about using the term Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics. If your point about identity was correct, though, then that would mean that one's status in a particular sui iuris Church is more constitutive to one's identity than is one's membership in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Christ.
And for a few folks in the Church, "Latin" (Church) truly comes before "Catholic."
Then there is the opposite, "more Catholic" less "Roman."'
Lots of folks, do not have consideration, interest or knowledge of the Eastern Churches: some, because they never heard of them. Some believe them to be a pop of old fashion color and esoteric accent in the Church, still others think them are irrelevant.
I honestly don't know if I've ever talked to anyone in person who has called themselves "rite"-Catholic unless perhaps we were discussing the different rites and someone asked for the particular rite they were baptised into.
The observation about McCarrick’s final judgment is correct. But the importance of temporal justice cannot be minimized. The alternative to swift, certain, and proportional temporal punishment is erosion of the rule of law — a lack of confidence in responsible institutions, and people turning to extra-legal forms of retribution (or, in other words, “mob rule”). A review of the U.S. Church’s experience in the last twenty-five years should ask whether these imperatives have adequately been met.
I don’t know who’s winning in regard to FS, but I know who’s losing: every soul lost in sexual sin, in desperate need of repentance, conversion, and new life in Christ. The confusion flowing from the very heart of the Church will lead many to believe their sins no longer have eternal consequences. May Christ have mercy.
Can we truly have a "confederated" Catholic Church in which a couple engaged in homosexual acts are simultaneously a blessed union emblematic of God's grace in northern Europe and damnable sinners in Africa? I don't think so. This institutional schizophrenia will be the Church's undoing. A house divided on such a basic moral question can't stand.
Whenever someone remarks that a house divided against itself cannot stand, I reread the incident it comes from https://bible.usccb.org/bible/matthew/12?22 which I like for its two-part demonstration of hope: if x, there is hope (the enemy is divided and will not stand), if not-x, there is hope (the kingdom of God is among us).
In the case of the Church where part is built of gold and part of wood, straw, or whatever, (not necessarily in that order) then I would refer to another, more inflammatory (which descriptor I throw in only for the pun) verse somewhere else. Maybe in St Paul, I forget ("scripture says somewhere".)
Probably who I will be voting for. Definitely who I will be voting for if the Republicans nominate Trump, unless the Democrats nominate someone opposed to abortionn which won't be happening.
This "confederation" of Churches applied to the Catholic Churches seems very similar to the Anglican Churches. In the Anglican Communion, the "Churches of the Southern Cone" (mainly Africa) are the ones keeping Anglican "orthodoxy."
I am not criticizing the comment or the idea of a confederation of Churches in communion with Rome. It truly does seem to be going in that direction.
However, the member churches of the Anglican Communion's ties to the See of Canterbury are much more loose than that of the ties of the Catholic Churches to the Roman See.
That Rome is making allowances for a different path regarding FS shows a healthy respect for the vitality and numbers found in the Catholic Churches in Africa.
Our Lady, please ask your son to give us mercy we don't deserve but desperately need! Lord Jesus, make a way where we see no way, and help your people to know unity in truth and love, amen!
Though I do think a looser "confederation" is possible and could even be helpful.
The "development" of the papacy into what it has become does not seem rooted well in the Tradition. We can see this both historically and theologically.
I happily and purposefully refer to myself, and have for a while, as a Catholic american, rather than an American catholic. It's a shame so many have knowingly or unknowingly put the nation in front of the Church.
To be honest I see "American Catholic" vs "Catholic American" as a distinction without a difference, except to those who are intending to be very specific. Most people probably mean the same thing if they were to use one or the other. I could even see "Catholic American" perhaps being worse since Catholic is modifying American, i.e. saying you're an American who happens to be a Catholic rather than vice versa. Clearly you are not trying to do that, but I think this is reading too much into what people mean when they're calling themselves one or the other.
Whenever I get a long chance to write (like this morning), I look at the day's saintly memorials. I try to find more obscure saints; and because of my own passion for the period, I like to seek out medieval saints from England or Ireland. I dedicate my work of the day to one of these. As Aelred (today) or Berno (tomorrow) or Ceolwulf (next week) wrote and studied and prayed, so do I. I've found the practice helps me immensely to see dignity in my work and to bring God into it. Very glad to see one of these saints get some big press :)
I've read some of Aelred's writings in Latin. I don't remember the specifics but it's worth noting they're still in print, probably in the medieval continuation of those patristic critical editions.
"I guess what I am saying is this: McCarrick isn’t going to die in prison, but he’s going to face the same court I will be due in front of in due course. Let God’s justice be done and, I hope, His love and mercy too, in accordance with His will."
and just think; If McCarrick truly confessed his sins and begged for forgiveness, God would forgive him.
Totally agree about the FS fallout as a significant step toward "confederation" and geographically-based morality (what is good in Germany is bad in Africa or Poland).
I wouldn't mind seeing confederation in terms of liturgy or practice. But if we see it in terms of doctrine, it's a short step from there to mutual excommunication. My $0.02.
The discussion over FS is interesting. But I constantly remind myself, that whatever they say or do, the bishops of the developed world are hardly the progressive avant-garde of this issue within their societies. And whatever the African Church may say or do about FS, they are absolutely on the more tolerant side of the issue of gay people within their societies.
Thanks, Ed, for an excellent analysis of the myth of “the Catholic vote.”
If self-describing as an "American Catholic" implies that one primarily identitifies as American, where does that leave the term "Roman Catholic" ?
The word that comes first is the qualifier. "Roman Catholic" is often a pejorative used by Protestants hearkening back to the age before the word "Protestant" existed and there was no distinction between Christian and Catholic in the public lexicon. I've also seen it used within the Church, though, as a distinguisher between Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics, though I think it's inartful.
Understood. If you'll pardon my persistence though, by that logic the term "Latin Catholic" would be equally problematic given that it would imply that one's Latinism has precedence over one's Catholicism, no? I've always considered the noun modified to be primary and the modifying adjective to be secondary e.g. a red car.
I think in relation to "Roman Catholic" it means one's Catholic identity cannot be understood without and is intrinsically qualified by the link to Rome, which mine is. The same holds for my point about soi dissant "American Catholics." I would like to think my Catholicism is unqualified by my nationality in any way.
Nevertheless, as your earlier comment shows, there is nothing incorrect about using the term Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics. If your point about identity was correct, though, then that would mean that one's status in a particular sui iuris Church is more constitutive to one's identity than is one's membership in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Christ.
And for a few folks in the Church, "Latin" (Church) truly comes before "Catholic."
Then there is the opposite, "more Catholic" less "Roman."'
Lots of folks, do not have consideration, interest or knowledge of the Eastern Churches: some, because they never heard of them. Some believe them to be a pop of old fashion color and esoteric accent in the Church, still others think them are irrelevant.
I honestly don't know if I've ever talked to anyone in person who has called themselves "rite"-Catholic unless perhaps we were discussing the different rites and someone asked for the particular rite they were baptised into.
Imagine a 1930's radio announcer reading the Torzi story aloud. It just fits!
Right! I really like the "fuzz" and "nicked" inserted in the story.
Bringing out the old jams. Yes sir. I knew you’d be able to sneak some type of Wu Tang at the end of these posts someday. Bravo!
The observation about McCarrick’s final judgment is correct. But the importance of temporal justice cannot be minimized. The alternative to swift, certain, and proportional temporal punishment is erosion of the rule of law — a lack of confidence in responsible institutions, and people turning to extra-legal forms of retribution (or, in other words, “mob rule”). A review of the U.S. Church’s experience in the last twenty-five years should ask whether these imperatives have adequately been met.
Couldn't agree more.
Scrolling past the Catholic vote (I'll read it later) to comment on the other kind of Catholic vote, i.e.: I look forward to our future African Pope.
From your lips to God’s ears.
Please God, let Bridget be right about this.
I fear she isn't, because the college of cardinals is now staffed with Francis's cronies.
Yes yes yes
I don’t know who’s winning in regard to FS, but I know who’s losing: every soul lost in sexual sin, in desperate need of repentance, conversion, and new life in Christ. The confusion flowing from the very heart of the Church will lead many to believe their sins no longer have eternal consequences. May Christ have mercy.
Can we truly have a "confederated" Catholic Church in which a couple engaged in homosexual acts are simultaneously a blessed union emblematic of God's grace in northern Europe and damnable sinners in Africa? I don't think so. This institutional schizophrenia will be the Church's undoing. A house divided on such a basic moral question can't stand.
Whenever someone remarks that a house divided against itself cannot stand, I reread the incident it comes from https://bible.usccb.org/bible/matthew/12?22 which I like for its two-part demonstration of hope: if x, there is hope (the enemy is divided and will not stand), if not-x, there is hope (the kingdom of God is among us).
In the case of the Church where part is built of gold and part of wood, straw, or whatever, (not necessarily in that order) then I would refer to another, more inflammatory (which descriptor I throw in only for the pun) verse somewhere else. Maybe in St Paul, I forget ("scripture says somewhere".)
I'm sufficiently American before Catholic that I thought that quote was from Abraham Lincoln.
Abraham Lincoln got it from the Bible...
1 Cor 3:11-15
Not surprisingly, "schizo" and "schism" have the same derivation.
Catholic vote: Sonski/Onak '24
Probably who I will be voting for. Definitely who I will be voting for if the Republicans nominate Trump, unless the Democrats nominate someone opposed to abortionn which won't be happening.
American Solidarity Party will probably get my vote if it is a Trump Biden choice again.
Another vote here for the American Solidarity Party. I don't expect either major party to nominate a candidate I can vote for.
This "confederation" of Churches applied to the Catholic Churches seems very similar to the Anglican Churches. In the Anglican Communion, the "Churches of the Southern Cone" (mainly Africa) are the ones keeping Anglican "orthodoxy."
I am not criticizing the comment or the idea of a confederation of Churches in communion with Rome. It truly does seem to be going in that direction.
However, the member churches of the Anglican Communion's ties to the See of Canterbury are much more loose than that of the ties of the Catholic Churches to the Roman See.
That Rome is making allowances for a different path regarding FS shows a healthy respect for the vitality and numbers found in the Catholic Churches in Africa.
I think Ed is saying it's a slow slide into schism, which sounds right to me
This is so frightening to me. I pray it isn’t the case.
I'll join you in that prayer.
Our Lady, please ask your son to give us mercy we don't deserve but desperately need! Lord Jesus, make a way where we see no way, and help your people to know unity in truth and love, amen!
I join in this prayer.
Though I do think a looser "confederation" is possible and could even be helpful.
The "development" of the papacy into what it has become does not seem rooted well in the Tradition. We can see this both historically and theologically.
You are singing a song of welcome to the Eastern lung...
Me???
It's not that slow, as we're already in de facto schism. De jure is next.
You could be right. Time will tell. Sometimes these things get sorted without a big blowup. Praying that God will correct us gently.
As a former Anglican, I’ve seen this movie before.
I happily and purposefully refer to myself, and have for a while, as a Catholic american, rather than an American catholic. It's a shame so many have knowingly or unknowingly put the nation in front of the Church.
To be honest I see "American Catholic" vs "Catholic American" as a distinction without a difference, except to those who are intending to be very specific. Most people probably mean the same thing if they were to use one or the other. I could even see "Catholic American" perhaps being worse since Catholic is modifying American, i.e. saying you're an American who happens to be a Catholic rather than vice versa. Clearly you are not trying to do that, but I think this is reading too much into what people mean when they're calling themselves one or the other.
Whenever I get a long chance to write (like this morning), I look at the day's saintly memorials. I try to find more obscure saints; and because of my own passion for the period, I like to seek out medieval saints from England or Ireland. I dedicate my work of the day to one of these. As Aelred (today) or Berno (tomorrow) or Ceolwulf (next week) wrote and studied and prayed, so do I. I've found the practice helps me immensely to see dignity in my work and to bring God into it. Very glad to see one of these saints get some big press :)
I've read some of Aelred's writings in Latin. I don't remember the specifics but it's worth noting they're still in print, probably in the medieval continuation of those patristic critical editions.
He wrote an excellent short treatise "On Friendship" sometimes called "On Spiritual Friendship."
"I guess what I am saying is this: McCarrick isn’t going to die in prison, but he’s going to face the same court I will be due in front of in due course. Let God’s justice be done and, I hope, His love and mercy too, in accordance with His will."
and just think; If McCarrick truly confessed his sins and begged for forgiveness, God would forgive him.
Totally agree about the FS fallout as a significant step toward "confederation" and geographically-based morality (what is good in Germany is bad in Africa or Poland).
I wouldn't mind seeing confederation in terms of liturgy or practice. But if we see it in terms of doctrine, it's a short step from there to mutual excommunication. My $0.02.
The discussion over FS is interesting. But I constantly remind myself, that whatever they say or do, the bishops of the developed world are hardly the progressive avant-garde of this issue within their societies. And whatever the African Church may say or do about FS, they are absolutely on the more tolerant side of the issue of gay people within their societies.