What is your take on the reasons for Traditionis custodes, and its very clear change of tack from Pope Benedict's reconciliatory approach? Is this just a broadside against the SSPX (which I imagine falls quite clearly in the "rejecting the validity of Vatican II" camp)?
It seems this is seriously going to hamper the vocation of societies like the FSSP or the Congregation of the Oratory of St Philip Neri (which are at least ostensibly faithful to Vatican II) and the development of personal or just more traditional parishes (which, at least in Europe, typically seem to thrive compared to "Novus Ordo" parishes with greying and ever-decreasing flocks).
Being from Germany I am shocked about this new motu proprio. EF-parishes were one of the few places where I found priests being somewhat critical about the synodal way and the way our bishops are going. I fear many of our bishops will eagerly use their new power to shut those down.
Also I wouldn't care so much about the EF if the OF was celebrated according to the rubrics which is sadly more an exception than the norm.
I’m finding it very difficult to contain my anger and utter disdain for Bergolio. He and his ilk are the cause of division in the Church with their modernist heretical teaching. I will pray for him because it is a divine command to do so. I would go elsewhere, but as Peter said, “Lord, to whom shall we go?” Anyone who does not see the evil and hypocrisy of this “Pope” is severely misguided. The good thing is he is not the Church, merely a grasping mortal man. May his eyes be opened before he dies and he repent of his evil acts.
One last comment. Francis gave the SSPX their biggest victory today. Catholics who love the TLM but have resisted the SSPX out of a sense of obedience to the Magisterium and the Episcopacy will be pulled ever more inexorably into its orbit. When the local FSSP is hounded out of dioceses under the pretext of this cruel dictate, don't be surprised to see an SSPX chapel spring up in its place. Faithful Catholics are being immiserated by this pontiff.
Imagine living in 2021 and thinking liberals are tolerant. Pope- go to the margins and accompany just locked the doors on the faithful. I guess he got good practice during covid.
Question 1: wasn't b16 thought to be offering an olive branch to sspx?
Question 2: did any sspx come back in appreciable numbers thereafter?
Question 3: if answer 1 is yes and answer 2 is no, then doesn't that provide support for the conclusion that revocation was (at least in part) rational in light of the decision to liberalize?
FWIW, I'm in favor of liberal access to the TLM and any other valid form of the liturgy. Would like to see more birtual Roman priests off the syromalankar rite, personally.
What surprises me the most is that this doesn't really seem like a Francis move. In things like the SSPX situation, Eastern Orthodox relations, etc., the strategy has more or less been "everyone smiles and waves and acts friendly and if we act like friends we'll eventually be friends."
Have to admit I am little mopey not to have been able to listen to your delightful banter on the podcast…. but knowing you’re in Rome… I’ll offer it up lol.
This is an attempt to apply harsh, rigid rules to predominantly young priests and condemn them for loving and being proud of their liturgical heritage. Francis is like a drunken father who beats his kids and then complains about how awful his children are for openly admiring their grandfather and great grandfather and wanting to learn about family history. When one contrasts Pope Francis' regular condemnations of young priests with his effusive praise for LGBTQ friendly parishes and priests, we see that he is a partisan ideologue with an ax to grind and no love or concern for the young families in the pews whom this will affect. These parishes are growing because it is where young families find love and support to be good Catholics. If Francis wanted to win hearts and minds, he would care about these families instead of condemning them to the mediocre, cold, uncaring parish life that caused millions to flee for evangelicalism and Sam Harris style atheism before the Latin mass started coming back.
The FSSP parishes wouldn't be brimming with young, faithful families if those families could find love and support to raise their kids in the faith at their local Novus Ordo parishes. I attend a NO parish that has such an environment, but it is one of only two or three in my diocese, and the bishop cussed out my priest for traditional practices like praying the St. Michael prayer after mass (along with a few others, according to season and whim). My bishop invited his pedophile friend to live at a retreat center next to the local Catholic high school and has no problem promoting women priests, but the St. Michael prayer is worthy of an abusive tongue lashing. Is it any wonder parishioners seek refuge in the TLM? The hatred many bishops have toward devotions that have sustained parish life for generations is heartbreaking. The utter lack of support most families get to raise their kids in the faith (and the subsequent exodus of children once they leave the house) is scandalous and tragic.
Instead of condemning groups who are successful in ministering to young families, why not fix Novus Ordo parishes so that families don't find it necessary to leave in order to find a loving community in which to raise their children? If Pope Francis was a truly loving father, this would be his goal, not vengeful abuse. I can't say I'm surprised after he destroyed the fastest growing religious order in Europe for celebrating the TLM, but this still hurts, and I say that as someone who has always been a member of Novus Ordo parishes.
There was no Tuesday pillar post as of my bedtime so forgive me for hijacking this. I was am early subscriber to the pillar and today I was so glad I did it. You have done something very brave. While it is humorous to see boomers melting down and not understanding metadata that users provide gratis, I sure you are taking fire. Stay on target.
My wife and I dated for almost three and a half years, and during that time we grew together in our faith and our love for the Church. The day before our wedding, we attended our first Mass in the Extraordinary Form. We were shocked by its beauty and reverence. It gave us a deeper appreciation for the Novus Ordo.
We have fallen in love with the Mass that was celebrated by St. Maximilian Kolbe before being sent to Auschwitz, by Blessed Pius IX on September 20, 1870, and by the French priests who had their churches ripped down in 1793.
Traditionis Custodes feels like we have been punched in the stomach. It is as though a bright new spark in our faith life has been extinguished.
What is your take on the reasons for Traditionis custodes, and its very clear change of tack from Pope Benedict's reconciliatory approach? Is this just a broadside against the SSPX (which I imagine falls quite clearly in the "rejecting the validity of Vatican II" camp)?
It seems this is seriously going to hamper the vocation of societies like the FSSP or the Congregation of the Oratory of St Philip Neri (which are at least ostensibly faithful to Vatican II) and the development of personal or just more traditional parishes (which, at least in Europe, typically seem to thrive compared to "Novus Ordo" parishes with greying and ever-decreasing flocks).
Also- I’m so excited for this week’s podcast! 🤓🤓🤓
Being from Germany I am shocked about this new motu proprio. EF-parishes were one of the few places where I found priests being somewhat critical about the synodal way and the way our bishops are going. I fear many of our bishops will eagerly use their new power to shut those down.
Also I wouldn't care so much about the EF if the OF was celebrated according to the rubrics which is sadly more an exception than the norm.
I’m finding it very difficult to contain my anger and utter disdain for Bergolio. He and his ilk are the cause of division in the Church with their modernist heretical teaching. I will pray for him because it is a divine command to do so. I would go elsewhere, but as Peter said, “Lord, to whom shall we go?” Anyone who does not see the evil and hypocrisy of this “Pope” is severely misguided. The good thing is he is not the Church, merely a grasping mortal man. May his eyes be opened before he dies and he repent of his evil acts.
One last comment. Francis gave the SSPX their biggest victory today. Catholics who love the TLM but have resisted the SSPX out of a sense of obedience to the Magisterium and the Episcopacy will be pulled ever more inexorably into its orbit. When the local FSSP is hounded out of dioceses under the pretext of this cruel dictate, don't be surprised to see an SSPX chapel spring up in its place. Faithful Catholics are being immiserated by this pontiff.
Imagine living in 2021 and thinking liberals are tolerant. Pope- go to the margins and accompany just locked the doors on the faithful. I guess he got good practice during covid.
Question 1: wasn't b16 thought to be offering an olive branch to sspx?
Question 2: did any sspx come back in appreciable numbers thereafter?
Question 3: if answer 1 is yes and answer 2 is no, then doesn't that provide support for the conclusion that revocation was (at least in part) rational in light of the decision to liberalize?
FWIW, I'm in favor of liberal access to the TLM and any other valid form of the liturgy. Would like to see more birtual Roman priests off the syromalankar rite, personally.
What surprises me the most is that this doesn't really seem like a Francis move. In things like the SSPX situation, Eastern Orthodox relations, etc., the strategy has more or less been "everyone smiles and waves and acts friendly and if we act like friends we'll eventually be friends."
Have to admit I am little mopey not to have been able to listen to your delightful banter on the podcast…. but knowing you’re in Rome… I’ll offer it up lol.
This is an attempt to apply harsh, rigid rules to predominantly young priests and condemn them for loving and being proud of their liturgical heritage. Francis is like a drunken father who beats his kids and then complains about how awful his children are for openly admiring their grandfather and great grandfather and wanting to learn about family history. When one contrasts Pope Francis' regular condemnations of young priests with his effusive praise for LGBTQ friendly parishes and priests, we see that he is a partisan ideologue with an ax to grind and no love or concern for the young families in the pews whom this will affect. These parishes are growing because it is where young families find love and support to be good Catholics. If Francis wanted to win hearts and minds, he would care about these families instead of condemning them to the mediocre, cold, uncaring parish life that caused millions to flee for evangelicalism and Sam Harris style atheism before the Latin mass started coming back.
The FSSP parishes wouldn't be brimming with young, faithful families if those families could find love and support to raise their kids in the faith at their local Novus Ordo parishes. I attend a NO parish that has such an environment, but it is one of only two or three in my diocese, and the bishop cussed out my priest for traditional practices like praying the St. Michael prayer after mass (along with a few others, according to season and whim). My bishop invited his pedophile friend to live at a retreat center next to the local Catholic high school and has no problem promoting women priests, but the St. Michael prayer is worthy of an abusive tongue lashing. Is it any wonder parishioners seek refuge in the TLM? The hatred many bishops have toward devotions that have sustained parish life for generations is heartbreaking. The utter lack of support most families get to raise their kids in the faith (and the subsequent exodus of children once they leave the house) is scandalous and tragic.
Instead of condemning groups who are successful in ministering to young families, why not fix Novus Ordo parishes so that families don't find it necessary to leave in order to find a loving community in which to raise their children? If Pope Francis was a truly loving father, this would be his goal, not vengeful abuse. I can't say I'm surprised after he destroyed the fastest growing religious order in Europe for celebrating the TLM, but this still hurts, and I say that as someone who has always been a member of Novus Ordo parishes.
There was no Tuesday pillar post as of my bedtime so forgive me for hijacking this. I was am early subscriber to the pillar and today I was so glad I did it. You have done something very brave. While it is humorous to see boomers melting down and not understanding metadata that users provide gratis, I sure you are taking fire. Stay on target.
My wife and I dated for almost three and a half years, and during that time we grew together in our faith and our love for the Church. The day before our wedding, we attended our first Mass in the Extraordinary Form. We were shocked by its beauty and reverence. It gave us a deeper appreciation for the Novus Ordo.
We have fallen in love with the Mass that was celebrated by St. Maximilian Kolbe before being sent to Auschwitz, by Blessed Pius IX on September 20, 1870, and by the French priests who had their churches ripped down in 1793.
Traditionis Custodes feels like we have been punched in the stomach. It is as though a bright new spark in our faith life has been extinguished.