‘The Church is not a substitute of the UN’: Cardinal Baselios Cleemis

The head of the Syro-Malankara Church discusses the nature of the global Church, the conclave, and why Christianity is always a 'minority community'

Among the 133 cardinal electors who will gather in the Sistine chapel on May 7 will be five from among the leaders of the 23 Eastern Churches sui iuris who, together with the Latin Church, form the global Catholic Church in communion with the pope.

Cardinal Baselios Cleemis, Major Archbishop-Catholicos of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. Image credit Susanna Pinto/The Pillar.

They represent from among their flocks some of the oldest Christian communities in the world, and the most ancient and unique spiritual and liturgical traditions in the Church. And the new pope will be charged with governing, protecting, promoting, and sustaining those 23 Eastern Churches just the same as he will be responsible for doing so for the global Latin Church.

One of the Eastern cardinals in the conclave will be Cardinal Baselios Cleemis, the Major Archbishop-Catholicos of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, centered in the southern India state of Kerala but with nearly half a million members worldwide. The Church traces its history back to the first century, the mission of St. Thomas the Apostle and the influences of the Syriac Christian communities of the Near East.

Born in 1959 as Isaac Thottumkal in Kerala, he was ordained a priest in 1986, and studied for his doctorate in ecumenical theology in Rome. He became a bishop in 2001, before being unanimously elected Major Archbishop-Catholicos, head of the Syro-Malankara Church, by the Church’s synod in 2007.

He was made a cardinal by Benedict XVI in 2012.

He spoke to The Pillar about the conclave, the Church as a global communion, the essential nature of Christianity as a minority community, and the state of the Church in India.

The interview has been edited for length and clarity.

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Your Beatitude, maybe we could begin with your experience as an Eastern Patriarch at Pope Francis’ funeral and now during the general congregations. You participated in the previous conclave as well.

So can you tell me about your experience as an Eastern Patriarch in those situations?

I was nominated a cardinal in the year 2012 by Pope Benedict XVI. And then after he resigned, we had the conclave in 2013 that elected Pope Francis. So that was my first experience as a participant, or a papal elector, through a conclave.

And then, of course, I had the privilege of meeting him and talking to him, discussing with him many things regarding the welfare of the Church, the Church in India. Pope Francis was very gracious, responding to the various aspects of the ecclesial life in India as well as the universal Church as a whole.

Now, after his demise, we are called to be again at the conclave to elect his successor for the entire Church. As I represent an Eastern Catholic Apostolic Church, namely the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church from India, which has also roots, missions, and parishes, and a presence in the U.S.

I must say it is a significant or graceful mission to be part of this election process.

And also I represent India and Kerala. Currently, I am also representing Kerala, as the bishops’ council’s president, and also specifically the Eastern Catholic community of the St. Thomas Christians.

It's a significant mission that we select the Successor of Peter and the immediate successor of Francis, to be faithful to the Gospel and to be as a continuation of the Petrine ministry and also as the vicar of Christ, most importantly, to represent God's mercy in the Church and general society.

As the head of an Eastern Church centered in India, how familiar are you, personally, with the Latin cardinals? Did you know them beforehand?

Some of them, of course, because of our interventions in the synod and the assemblies and occasional meetings of the cardinals. But there are also new faces with which we are getting familiar in these days through conversation and also by way of acquaintance.

How does the Eastern Church see the Petrine ministry?

We always consider it as a divine institution — the Church, of course — and commissioned by the Lord himself, a special commission to St. Peter, upon which the Church is built. The faith of Peter is counted worthy before the Lord, and successors are the vicar of Christ.

And the Petrine ministry also gives a guarantee of unity and solidarity with humanity, unity of Churches and solidarity with different sections of, what do we say, human life.

So a pope, not simply as a world leader, but as a spiritual leader of the entire Church and the successor of Peter, as someone who strengthens his brethren.

That was the commission given to St. Peter by the Lord: you strengthen your brethren. So that communion aspect is there, and the solidarity with humanity is also there, looking at the needs of the society at large, and caring for the poor and the underprivileged, and those who are really in need of the helping hand of the Church, the pope should be at their service.

And we see him as the successor of Peter, who is the head of the Apostolic College.

Are there any themes that are developing among the cardinals as the key priorities for the Church as you begin to think about electing a successor?

Have they become clear yet?

Each one is sharing the real problems of the world, the real problems that the Church faces today, and how the pope should be able to address these issues.

Not who is going to address them, but how.

What do you think the Church needs now?

We need someone to guide the Church in its entirety, in the sense it is not a set of people in one place, it is a universal Church. Therefore, Peter has to look into the affairs of the whole community of believers within the Church.

Then, also, as a leader of the peace and solidarity expressed in the world, he has also to look into the affairs of human life and society. That’s also important.

So we need to find someone who can bring in unity and call for solidarity of the human family.

Have you been able to speak yet during the congregations?

Yes, we are sharing and we are also realizing those things which we have never really thought of.

So the new informations, not regarding persons, but also orientations of persons, are clear when they speak out.

Pope Francis spoke about ‘a poor Church for the poor.’ What insights will you share with your brother cardinals about the best way to meet the poor and help them?

First of all, I should admit that the Church is not a substitute of the United Nations organization. The Church is a spiritual reality which has its strength based on the Gospel and the legacy of the spiritual heritage of the Church. Based upon that, the Church has a lot of initiatives to purify and renew the life of its faithful and ministers within the Church.

And then, as we see that the world is so complex in certain areas, what is lacking is real economic sharing. In one place, it may be total oppression of a certain ideology. Some people are really affected with the war and with tensions within the community. There you are a force, not military, but you are a spiritual force for peace.

That’s what Pope Francis said at the end of his ministry regarding Gaza. War doesn’t give any solution. You need peace. Therefore, the Church has these two dimensions. That it has to speak for a healthy world on its different aspects, on different levels. And also that has to empower.

For example, if there are two countries fighting each other, the Petrine ministry is always trying to help them to come together and solve the issue, like the problems between Israel and Palestine or Russia and Ukraine.

But that is not the first political agenda of the Church. That doesn’t mean that we are not concerned. We are concerned based upon a significant reality, that is a spiritual reality of the Church. And upon that strength, the Church has to emerge, providing solutions to the conflicts and issues.

And that I think that we should continue to do, but our strength is because we are a Church.

Do you think that your brother cardinals will think about electing somebody who might be more representative of the places where the Church is growing, for example, in Asia and Africa?

Or is that not something that really factors in?

I think our attention should go to the persons, not to the continents. Continents could be changed. If I change my residence, then my continent is different. But look at the person, look at his orientation, look at his capacity to talk, and to coordinate, and to be in communion, and to be ever ready to have dialogue, and to behave as a man of peace.

These are the orientations to be looked toward the successor of Peter.

I give no priority for a continent, I give priority to a person. And that’s a person in the sense, who could give more strength to these visions which I cherish that my pope should have? And that is the answer.

From an Eastern point of view, what’s your vision of a synodal Church?

We need to have more communications and participation. And also to make our people aware that they have certain responsibilities in the Church, not that we could sit together around a table. That is not the synodal end of it, that’s really a beginning. But as you are given a chance, as you are given a mission, and as you are aware of that mission, you have responsibilities.

So to be a faithful Christian is something significant and has its own real painful missions ahead, and one has to carry that. Not that you attend a meeting and you say you’re part of a synodal Church. Well, that is from the point of discussion, point of consultation, you’re part of it. But what about the responsibilities of the Church carried on by our faithful, our ministers, our bishops together?

This is what is really the synodal Church.

What are some of the biggest challenges for your people?

In fact, I’m blessed to be born in India in the sense that Indians have basically the concept of God in their whole life, not simply as a matter of proclamation. It’s a matter of something that affects them from their very birth until the last breath. So we are born in that culture. Therefore, faith in God is not something which we received later.

No, we already have that. And we are born, even if you are not born as a Christian, we are born into this culture of having faith in God. So that is a blessing.

And then we received the Gospel. In 52 AD, St. Thomas came to India and we had the fortune to receive the Gospel from him. That is why we are called St. Thomas Christians, especially focusing in South India. And later in the north because of the missionaries, the Church came through the Catholic way of life, and the Protestant. And then we have also the Eastern Orthodox traditions in India.

And in my understanding, and I believe I’m correct, the Hindus, they have a spirituality of welcoming everyone. So that also positively helped us to get into the life of India. And we have an Apostolic Church, lived in India for the last 2,000 years, in the midst of a lot of varied experiences.

Christianity was everywhere a minority community in a sense. Those who really believe that Jesus is the Lord are always a minority. Even in the so-called Christian countries, and we say what happens today is the number of faithful are at a minimum. Why? It was a minority community. So we don’t need to be much surprised about that statement.

Now, in India, next to the government of India, we have the record of having a medical care system, the largest, and educational assistance. The diocesan congregations, religious congregations, they have a lot of institutions helping the rural people, as well as the middle-class people. And then we also have worshiping communities throughout.

Occasionally, you hear some painful incidents of being threatened, being challenged, being persecuted. That’s the reality. But the Church continues to do the mission with all its depth and sincerity.

We may not be the best in expressing our deep faith in the Lord, but we are still trying to be at his side.

Do you have a high level of Sunday Mass attendance on Sunday?

We still have. Recently, we had the Holy Week services in all churches, not only in Catholic, all churches. We have a very good attendance. In the midst of challenges, that’s what you have everywhere.

We cannot say that we don’t have any challenges facing family life. We have, but we have beautiful families. So our mission is to overcome those hurdles and say, with a happy note, “I do believe in Jesus Christ. He’s a Savior for me and for all.” I think that is the freedom we still have in India.

Are you in touch with the Modi government about concerns over discrimination against Christians?

We had a couple of meetings with him directly as cardinals and heads of churches. We do have consultations.

Even just after the meeting, we may have the sad news that one church is attacked, India being a great subcontinent with a lot of people, and there are a lot of internal divisions within each community.

It’s also — not justifying, but it’s also to be taken with great care — that nobody can simply stop such alarming threats at one point of time. But generally, we have the discussions, positive discussions, and the government listens to that.

And sometimes we feel the immediate solutions, but we are also prepared to see that sometimes very sad news of being challenged and attacked. But I’m sure that is not the end of everything.

How do you personally prepare for the conclave in your prayer life? How do you try to make the best decision?

One thing is that during these discussions, I keep some additional time for my personal prayer, because for me, in my lifetime, this is a very significant historic mission. So what the Lord wants me to do, I should do, no?

And I have not seen yet people asking the name of the person, no. But we are sharing concerns and visions.

In between, people would say, “He’s sitting with us, one who is going to be elected. He’s sitting with us. So he’s listening and he has to also listen.” This is also a good practice, that you may not be able to say whatever you want to say to the pope, but now you are free to share with your brothers, intimating that he’s also listening.

This is a good expression, I think. You’re totally free. You are not talking to one person, you’re talking to the College of Cardinals, but the pope is also listening. That’s a good occasion, I feel.

And I think a lot of people are praying with the same intention. I’m pretty sure. In the religious convents and also in the families, people really pray for this intention and that helps us to discern the promptings of the Holy Spirit, what to do.

In the last conclave, I must say I experienced personally, like all other cardinals in different levels, but I’ve always felt it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

So we need some time to discern the promptings of the Spirit to do the most needed act. And that is happening. It’s a spiritual act, I’m sure.

For the world outside, you’re choosing someone, the pope, the world leader, through your ballot. But I’m choosing my father and head of my Church. That’s a difference we always make. And to be the head of a state compared to the Petrine ministry of the pope in the Church is less for me.