Put the doc through Chat GPT and ask it to give you "a synthesis to be useful to the intended audience [seminarians, priests and formators] in bullet points, summaries, and questions for reflection and application." Maybe 5th or 8th grade reading level?
Some Reputable News Source did that with a recent Vatican document and it went surprisingly well.... :-)
To play devil's advocate, I can at least understand the sentiment of the bishop regarding what sounded to me like a serious issue a priest was having with relation to lay people. A priest talking about having "seven spiritual daughters" sounds like the beginning or part of an inappropriate relationship. On the other hand, of course, you ought to read something before criticizing it's language.
I don't get it, if priests are just spiritual brothers to the laity with no claim to fatherhood, then why do we address them as Father? They can apparently act In Persona Christi but calling them Father is going way too far beyond their abilities?
My ex-Catholic fundamentalist brother-in-law thinks we should “call no man Father” despite much scriptural evidence to the contrary. How is the Bishop’s complaint about calling priests spiritual fathers much different than that?
These bishops seems to have a very high opinion of the laity, maybe it's because they see so little of them. Conversely, the disdain they have for their own priests - who they seem to regard as unformed, arrogant, lazy bums - is hard to take. And that's just the bishops who stayed for the discussion. Can you imagine how much Cupich loathes the clergy of his diocese?
I think some laity are worth having a high opinion of. Look at the wonderful laity here, at The Pillar, who are working tirelessly to build up the church. Why can't laity like this exist in the parish as well?
Sure, there are lots of good lay people, but there are lots of good priests, and priests who try very hard to be good priests, but it is clear (from their actions) that some bishops have considerable distain or disregard for their priests, particularly (it seems) for those who are or try to be good priests.
What a mess we find ourselves in. Not only is there no common vision of the priesthood among bishops, but they pit the Pope's against each other. I don't know what the future holds for the church, I know that the gates of Hell will never ultimately prevail, but I also know that this cannot continue. This isn't a difference in emphasis, it's a difference in a whole vision of what God wants for His church. Said another way, it's not two people in a car debating the best way to get to the same location, it's two people debating what the end location should be. Priests don't trust their bishop's, bishop's don't trust their priests, bishops have utterly opposed ideas of what the Church even is, a reality reflected in this document, the Eucharistic Renewal efforts, Eucharistic Coherence, in frankly just about everything. Each side claims to be following one Pope or another, both sides implicitly stating there's no continuity there. Meanwhile, the laity, even those not interested in the politics of church, can feel the fact that division is the rule of the day and we see the response everywhere: celebrity culture. They pick and choose "their" priest, their bishop, their online Catholic personality because why not pick a side? There is no common voice. We must pray for unity in the church, true unity born of truth and not compromise. I would love to see this, but what I fear is that what's on the horizon is schism, perhaps a schism like we haven't seen since the 16th century.
Very insightful. I hope we can avoid your conclusion. The faithful perceive all this whether they understand the dynamic behind the scenes or not. As clergy, we are failing as shepherds, and the flock is, predictably, scattering.
As a lay individual who has worked in a parish for 9 years, with the same pastor, I applaud the bishops efforts to encourage priests to build relationships with laity. Building good teams of people at a parish is incredibly important, especially parish staff. We are too used to the parish secretary who "quite and stayed" and causes so much drama for the parish. Pastors should work hard to find good, holy, hard working staff members and compensate them well. If a pastor dreads going to their office to work, something is wrong and needs fixed. However, pastors do not receive appropriate training in administration and on running the business side of a parish. I would encourage any priest to explore Patrick Lencioni's books! Patrick is a faithful Catholic and works tirelessly to assist pastors in their efforts to make amazing parishes. Also, his book, The Better Pastor completely changed my pastor's views on administration and has brought our parish to where it is today.
I am also afraid bishops will try to use this to cover up their own failing in building relationships with their priests. The Bishops will need a both/and approach. It is true that bishops cannot be all things to all priests, and that's why a good group of faithful laity are important. However, Bishops do need to be bishops for all their priests. They need to build that appropriate relationship of fraternity and support. If the bishops are not careful, they are going to make priest/bishop relationships worse by trying to push priests toward the laity.
As a former San Diegan, who recently escaped California for Phoenix, I’d like to know the extent of Bishop Dolan’s relationship with now-laicized Jacob Bertrand when they were Fr. Dolan and Fr. Bertrand, especially when they served together at St. Rose of Lima parish from 2010-2013. Many of my peers feel betrayed, scandalized, and hurt by the entire Bertrand situation since many of us were close to him in community and even men’s small groups. The lack of transparency has destroyed our trust.
Put the doc through Chat GPT and ask it to give you "a synthesis to be useful to the intended audience [seminarians, priests and formators] in bullet points, summaries, and questions for reflection and application." Maybe 5th or 8th grade reading level?
Some Reputable News Source did that with a recent Vatican document and it went surprisingly well.... :-)
St John Vianney, pray for us!
“I have not read the document myself,” said a bishop, before criticizing the document.
To play devil's advocate, I can at least understand the sentiment of the bishop regarding what sounded to me like a serious issue a priest was having with relation to lay people. A priest talking about having "seven spiritual daughters" sounds like the beginning or part of an inappropriate relationship. On the other hand, of course, you ought to read something before criticizing it's language.
😄
I don't get it, if priests are just spiritual brothers to the laity with no claim to fatherhood, then why do we address them as Father? They can apparently act In Persona Christi but calling them Father is going way too far beyond their abilities?
I’m going to assume you question is rhetorical.
My ex-Catholic fundamentalist brother-in-law thinks we should “call no man Father” despite much scriptural evidence to the contrary. How is the Bishop’s complaint about calling priests spiritual fathers much different than that?
These bishops seems to have a very high opinion of the laity, maybe it's because they see so little of them. Conversely, the disdain they have for their own priests - who they seem to regard as unformed, arrogant, lazy bums - is hard to take. And that's just the bishops who stayed for the discussion. Can you imagine how much Cupich loathes the clergy of his diocese?
I think some laity are worth having a high opinion of. Look at the wonderful laity here, at The Pillar, who are working tirelessly to build up the church. Why can't laity like this exist in the parish as well?
Sure, there are lots of good lay people, but there are lots of good priests, and priests who try very hard to be good priests, but it is clear (from their actions) that some bishops have considerable distain or disregard for their priests, particularly (it seems) for those who are or try to be good priests.
What a mess we find ourselves in. Not only is there no common vision of the priesthood among bishops, but they pit the Pope's against each other. I don't know what the future holds for the church, I know that the gates of Hell will never ultimately prevail, but I also know that this cannot continue. This isn't a difference in emphasis, it's a difference in a whole vision of what God wants for His church. Said another way, it's not two people in a car debating the best way to get to the same location, it's two people debating what the end location should be. Priests don't trust their bishop's, bishop's don't trust their priests, bishops have utterly opposed ideas of what the Church even is, a reality reflected in this document, the Eucharistic Renewal efforts, Eucharistic Coherence, in frankly just about everything. Each side claims to be following one Pope or another, both sides implicitly stating there's no continuity there. Meanwhile, the laity, even those not interested in the politics of church, can feel the fact that division is the rule of the day and we see the response everywhere: celebrity culture. They pick and choose "their" priest, their bishop, their online Catholic personality because why not pick a side? There is no common voice. We must pray for unity in the church, true unity born of truth and not compromise. I would love to see this, but what I fear is that what's on the horizon is schism, perhaps a schism like we haven't seen since the 16th century.
Very insightful. I hope we can avoid your conclusion. The faithful perceive all this whether they understand the dynamic behind the scenes or not. As clergy, we are failing as shepherds, and the flock is, predictably, scattering.
As a lay individual who has worked in a parish for 9 years, with the same pastor, I applaud the bishops efforts to encourage priests to build relationships with laity. Building good teams of people at a parish is incredibly important, especially parish staff. We are too used to the parish secretary who "quite and stayed" and causes so much drama for the parish. Pastors should work hard to find good, holy, hard working staff members and compensate them well. If a pastor dreads going to their office to work, something is wrong and needs fixed. However, pastors do not receive appropriate training in administration and on running the business side of a parish. I would encourage any priest to explore Patrick Lencioni's books! Patrick is a faithful Catholic and works tirelessly to assist pastors in their efforts to make amazing parishes. Also, his book, The Better Pastor completely changed my pastor's views on administration and has brought our parish to where it is today.
I am also afraid bishops will try to use this to cover up their own failing in building relationships with their priests. The Bishops will need a both/and approach. It is true that bishops cannot be all things to all priests, and that's why a good group of faithful laity are important. However, Bishops do need to be bishops for all their priests. They need to build that appropriate relationship of fraternity and support. If the bishops are not careful, they are going to make priest/bishop relationships worse by trying to push priests toward the laity.
As a former San Diegan, who recently escaped California for Phoenix, I’d like to know the extent of Bishop Dolan’s relationship with now-laicized Jacob Bertrand when they were Fr. Dolan and Fr. Bertrand, especially when they served together at St. Rose of Lima parish from 2010-2013. Many of my peers feel betrayed, scandalized, and hurt by the entire Bertrand situation since many of us were close to him in community and even men’s small groups. The lack of transparency has destroyed our trust.